BG SPOILERS: new perspective, KoTC, Denarians and so on.

[huangjimmy108]

Well, post BG there are a few things I see differently from before. KoTC and the Denarians are just one of them.
One thing I notice is the fact that Marcone has been holding and using Namsiel's coin for years now and the KoTC has not even reacted. No mission from above, no divine revelation, nothing. Assuming that Marcone has not done any bad things with this power all this time, I doubt anyone would believed it. This should tell us something.

Previously we are told that the KoTC are there to balance the coins, but with the example of Marcone above this assertion become somewhat doubtful.

There is a line in BG where Harry told us his insight about how the holy swords operate, and this insight led me to think that the KoTC is not there to balance the coins. At least that is not their most important job. Their most important job is to ensure there is a choice to be made, not to undone or to prevent the harm or damage by the denarians or the fallen inside the coin.

This should grant us a deeper understanding about why KoTC gave different treatement between those Denarians completely controlled by their fallen and the Denarians actively cooperating with their fallen. For those completely controlled by their fallen i.e: Rasmussen in book 5 for example, A KoTC can kill them directly after giving a few wwarnings. Basically this people no longer able to make a free will choice, so killing them and saving them does not make a difference. It can be argued that killing them is in fact saving them.

For those like Nicodemous however, they still make free will choices every second of every day. Their choices could be evil but they are still choices. The KoTC's job is to present them with alternatives. Chances to take a different path. Killing them is never an option to begin with. If we ever imagine that Nicodemous is going to be beheaded by ammorachius, it is not possible in my opinion. Killed by Harry's magic is possible, but directly killed by the strike of a holy sword is never goint to happened.

Another thing is about the path to *Monsterhood*.

Basically, *Monsterhood* in itself is not evil. Mab is a monster. Marcone is a monster. I bet the original Merlin is a monster too. Unless you choose to stand by and do nothing like those people in the white council, you are going to end up as a monster sooner or later. And the white council has the blackstaff as their pet monster, so I say the WC is monster by proxy.

Another point is the fact that monsters has their place in the DV. They have their role and their role are vitally important. This is why the coins are meant to be circulated and any attempt to completely seal them and kept them from circulation will eventually end up in futility. This is because as the KoTC is there to open the alternative to light and redemption, the coins need to be there to open the alternative to darkness and temptation. Only when they are both there would "Free will" has any meaning.

This meant, a holder of the coin is not nescesarily become the enemy of KoTC. A coin holder will only encounter a KoTC in their official capacity if there is a point in time where they need help to make a choice.

Under normal circumstances, coin holder can make choices on their own. The fallen can tempt them, of course. But as Harry show us, a person will can always keep the fallen's influence at bay. In the end, it is the person's own choice that must determine everything.

Sometimes however this balance is broken. Even the best people has their limits. Harry in BG and Michael in the short story is a classic example. Or sometimes the fallen inside the coin cheated and exert more power or influence than what is strictly allowed. In such cases, the KoTC is deployed.

If the fallen inside the coin play by the rules and there is no extenuating circumstances, TWG won't call upon the KoTC. This could explain why Marcone is never disturb by the KoTC. It also explain why only 3 knights is needed to balance 30 coins.

[Arjan]

Uriel has lunch with Odin and was not concerned about Molly being winter lady at all. The white council does not understand purpose. At least most of them.

Gard somewhere talked about the importance of finding your purpose. It is another way of looking at things than the free will idea but it is not incompatible. Mab found a purpose in defending reality, she probably actively looked for it because for an immortal nowadays to have any meaning you must have a purpose.

The purpose of Uriel, or one of his purposes, is to enable free will. That includes offering denarian hosts other choices than the ones they get from the fallen. The knights make that possible.

So maybe Uriel made a deal with Vadderung about Murphy’s soul but that deal would include a free willed choice like Karin had to chose to die as a warrior. What is next is more flexible than just left or right.

Just like Uriel’s deal with Mab about Harry was based about a free willed choice for Harry. Literally with those doors in ghost story.

A monster like Uriel is defined by its purpose, its nature. As Mab said somewhere in battle ground that power is shaped by choices she made as a mortal. What she is was shaped by free willed choices in the past.

The white council is afraid of monster hood. They should be more concerned with the choices they make.

But if Harry becomes immortal he must find a purpose.

[The_Sibelis]

Cause it's backwards I think, the coins exist to balance the swords. To take up the balance similar to the summer court. To prevent imbalance, or something else from standing in balance perhaps.

[Mira]

The Swords are not about balance, they are a tool to fight the Fallen in the coins.. The Knights who wield them are more important, they are about giving the hosts of the coins the choice to redeem themselves.

[huangjimmy108]

Uriel has lunch with Odin and was not concerned about Molly being winter lady at all. The white council does not understand purpose. At least most of them.

Gard somewhere talked about the importance of finding your purpose. It is another way of looking at things than the free will idea but it is not incompatible. Mab found a purpose in defending reality, she probably actively looked for it because for an immortal nowadays to have any meaning you must have a purpose.

The purpose of Uriel, or one of his purposes, is to enable free will. That includes offering denarian hosts other choices than the ones they get from the fallen. The knights make that possible.

So maybe Uriel made a deal with Vadderung about Murphy’s soul but that deal would include a free willed choice like Karin had to chose to die as a warrior. What is next is more flexible than just left or right.

Just like Uriel’s deal with Mab about Harry was based about a free willed choice for Harry. Literally with those doors in ghost story.

A monster like Uriel is defined by its purpose, its nature. As Mab said somewhere in battle ground that power is shaped by choices she made as a mortal. What she is was shaped by free willed choices in the past.

The white council is afraid of monster hood. They should be more concerned with the choices they make.

But if Harry becomes immortal he must find a purpose.

The reward for a job well done is more work. This is the principal which created the *Monster* path.

If by doing your job well you are given more and more work, eventually you'll break under the strain or you have to reach beyond your limits and become a monster in the process.

The only way to avoid it is only to use 50% to 70% of your full capabilities at most times. This means, you cannot save people you could originally save. You must let go the evil you should be able to slay because you can't go all out. Keeping that 30% to 50% of your capacity to yourself ensures you always has a trump card hidden in case of emergencies and obscure your exact information from your enemies. Meanwhile you accumulate power: physical, magical, financial and political and further push your max capabilities quietly, secretly and in a low key manner. If all possible you push out cannon fodder, cat's paw and chest pieces ahead to do your job for you. That is how the white council operate. This is the way Arthur Langtry do business.

It is not exactly a bad strategy. In fact it is a darn good one. But this is definitely not how Harry Dresden works.

[huangjimmy108]

The Swords are not about balance, they are a tool to fight the Fallen in the coins.. The Knights who wield them are more important, they are about giving the hosts of the coins the choice to redeem themselves.

My new perspective is this. I don't think saving the coin holder is the main priority. I think allowing them to make a choice is more important. Even if the coin holder choose the path of darkness, as long as the coin holder make a choice, the TWG camp would have gain something in the process. Of course they prefer it if the soul can be redeemed, but I think the *Choice* aspect has a higher priority than the *redemption* aspect.

[Yuillegan]

I see your point. It's an interesting take. I definitely think, especially considering what Uriel considers his purpose, that all in the service of Heaven are really just there to create and defend Choice (especially including the "right" choice).

I don't agree that the Swords cannot kill the Denarian's mortal part, the Fallen's host. The first scene where we meet the full Knights of the Cross in Death Masks (Book 5) and the first time we meet the Knights of the Blackened Denarius, Michael quite literally uses Amoracchius to kill the host Rasmussen and severe his possession by Ursiel. And both Shiro and Sanya would have done the same, if necessary. So if it came down to it they would do what must be done. Killing the host seems to be a viable alternative to getting the host to give up the Coin, even if it is a last resort. Michael arguably almost killed Nick in Skin Game, Nicodemus survived by using the Grail to shield himself.

[huangjimmy108]

I see your point. It's an interesting take. I definitely think, especially considering what Uriel considers his purpose, that all in the service of Heaven are really just there to create and defend Choice (especially including the "right" choice).

I don't agree that the Swords cannot kill the Denarian's mortal part, the Fallen's host. The first scene where we meet the full Knights of the Cross in Death Masks (Book 5) and the first time we meet the Knights of the Blackened Denarius, Michael quite literally uses Amoracchius to kill the host Rasmussen and severe his possession by Ursiel. And both Shiro and Sanya would have done the same, if necessary. So if it came down to it they would do what must be done. Killing the host seems to be a viable alternative to getting the host to give up the Coin, even if it is a last resort. Michael arguably almost killed Nick in Skin Game, Nicodemus survived by using the Grail to shield himself.

I argue that the Denarians who is fully controlled by their fallen like Rasmussen and those who are actively cooperating with their fallen like Nick are given different treatment.

Previously I believe that TWG main objective is to save people, which is why I discount the possibility of different treatment between these 2 types of Denarians. But if their main purpose is *Choices*, than those Denarians who are fully controlled and are unable to make *Free will* choices anymore has a lower value compare to the likes of Nicodemous. Which is why they can be directly killed.

So far, no denarians like Nicodemous has been directly killed by a sword strike. Sure, Michael tried, but the fact that we never seen it ever succeeded seem to tell us something. I mean, when it is about the holy swords there is no coincidence.

[CrusherJen]

Well, post BG there are a few things I see differently from before. KoTC and the Denarians are just one of them. One thing I notice is the fact that Marcone has been holding and using Namsiel's coin for years now and the KoTC has not even reacted. No mission from above, no divine revelation, nothing. Assuming that Marcone has not done any bad things with this power all this time, I doubt anyone would believed it.

The thing is, Thorned Namshiel has been keeping a very low profile. So how would he come to the attention of the Knights? As far as they know, Marcone's a vanilla mortal crimelord, which isn't great, but not anything the Swords were meant to deal with. And they've got twenty-nine other Denarians (give or take) keeping them busy.

If Marcone and Namshiel do something obviously supernaturally evil, then yes, I'd expect the Knights to become aware and act as a counter. But until then (or until Harry lets it slip), I expect they will continue to slide under the Swords' radar.

[The_Sibelis]

The Swords are not about balance,

all of reality in the DF is about balance..

[huangjimmy108]

The thing is, Thorned Namshiel has been keeping a very low profile. So how would he come to the attention of the Knights? As far as they know, Marcone's a vanilla mortal crimelord, which isn't great, but not anything the Swords were meant to deal with. And they've got twenty-nine other Denarians (give or take) keeping them busy.

If Marcone and Namshiel do something obviously supernaturally evil, then yes, I'd expect the Knights to become aware and act as a counter. But until then (or until Harry lets it slip), I expect they will continue to slide under the Swords' radar.

The Knights does not know, but TWG knows. And like I said, I doubt that Marcone has not use this new power to do things, most likely bad things. The problem is the fact that the KoTC is not prompted by the upstairs to do something in regards to Marcone. This meant, whatever Marcone has done with Namsiel's power , it does not alarm the forces of Heaven. Which means, just because you held a coin does not nescesarily mean you become the target of the knights in an official capacity.

[morriswalters]

The Knight's never attack the coins first.  That's settled in Small Favor. And balancing the evil done by the coins does not mean that the swords are always directed at things that the coins may be doing.  There is plenty of other evil to balance.  As in Sanya joining the fight in Changes and Murphy's action in the charge up the pyramid. Or as in Michael's actions in Proven Guilty.

Everybody not a mortal is a monster.  Mortals may be but everyone else is.  Which is settled at the end of BG.  Thing of note. If Marcone is acting freely it's because it is in Namshiel's interest for him to do so.  Which seems a weird position for Marcone to put himself into. But I think Jim fell off the bus anyway.

[Eleyctra]

One thing I notice is the fact that Marcone has been holding and using Namsiel's coin for years now and the KoTC has not even reacted. No mission from above, no divine revelation, nothing. Assuming that Marcone has not done any bad things with this power all this time, I doubt anyone would believed it. This should tell us something.

There should be some consideration on this theory that Marcone had enough will power (without doubt) and knowledge (also without doubt after hiring his 'magic counselor' Gard), that he didn't pick up the coin for some time. He likely held out until things got truly dicey for him. Like maybe after Harry's death and the fomor kept causing harm in his city and his people.

Kinda like Harry taking up Mab's offer of more power as a Winter Knight when he was backed into a wall, maybe Marcone's timing of picking up the coin was only very recently.

[Bad Alias]

Answering the question of when Marcone took up the coin is an interesting one. I noticed in BG that Marcone didn't care about the huntsmen going after children. Whenever he stopped caring for children might indicate when he took up the coin.