Anyone else... disappointed? [PT/BG spoilers]

[Dina]

Which is precisely what I don't like. So far, nothing in the books gave me the impression that he is so easily corrupted as he fears.

[Wicked Woodpecker of West]

Which is precisely what I don't like. So far, nothing in the books gave me the impression that he is so easily corrupted as he fears.

That's why Butcher puts tipping point 15 years earlier, so there's time to slowly, slowly push him - not making it look too easy or cheap.

[Mira]

Mirror Mirror was never about free will and choice.  It was a fun look at an evil Trek universe. The episode you offer is about decision making. And very subtly is taking issue with how Spock was constructed as a character.  The only episode that dealt with choice and free will was The City On The Edge Of Forever. It looked at how changing one event with the best of intentions creates great evil over time.  I like the idea of an evil Harry.

How do you get an evil Harry out of that?  Yes, "The City on the Edge of Forever" is about changing one event, even with the best of intentions can have evil consequences.  However none of the characters in the story were evil.  McCoy, Kirk, Spock, or Edith Keeler were evil, on the contrary, Edith was rather saintly and ahead of her time in many of her ideas.  That was the problem, when McCoy saved her life she was able to convince those in power to carry through with her ideas.  That in of itself wasn't evil, but it made it impossible to fight effectively the great evil brewing at the time, Hitler, thus Hitler wins the war which destroys the future for everyone.  Or if Earth still survive, it could never evolve into becoming a member of the Federation of Planets.  The moral of that episode could be "the road to hell is often paved with the best of intentions.."

I also have a problem with the idea of an evil Harry as tempting at it is to so many.  First of all, is it Harry observing an evil version of himself?  If it is, I think that violates some basic laws of time travel.  Now it could be that it does happen sending serious ripples of time out everywhere really screwing things up.  If it is Harry himself that goes all dark, is he aware of it?  And if he is dark, why would he want to change, or go back to where he belongs for that matter? 

[Arjan]

How do you get an evil Harry out of that?  Yes, "The City on the Edge of Forever" is about changing one event, even with the best of intentions can have evil consequences.  However none of the characters in the story were evil.  McCoy, Kirk, Spock, or Edith Keeler were evil, on the contrary, Edith was rather saintly and ahead of her time in many of her ideas.  That was the problem, when McCoy saved her life she was able to convince those in power to carry through with her ideas.  That in of itself wasn't evil, but it made it impossible to fight effectively the great evil brewing at the time, Hitler, thus Hitler wins the war which destroys the future for everyone.  Or if Earth still survive, it could never evolve into becoming a member of the Federation of Planets.  The moral of that episode could be "the road to hell is often paved with the best of intentions.."

I also have a problem with the idea of an evil Harry as tempting at it is to so many.  First of all, is it Harry observing an evil version of himself?  If it is, I think that violates some basic laws of time travel.  Now it could be that it does happen sending serious ripples of time out everywhere really screwing things up.  If it is Harry himself that goes all dark, is he aware of it?  And if he is dark, why would he want to change, or go back to where he belongs for that matter?

The mirror thing has nothing to do with time travel. The river has split up but you don’t move upstream, you move sidewards.

And the whole thing is about Harry making different choices.

Compare with how A wizard can have become a warlock which in the dresdenverse can be the result of only one bad choice. A choice that opens up new pathways and closes others. A choice that can look tempting at times.

A free willed choice of that magnitude, the mirror world creating magnitude, especially with magic involved changes who you are and is difficult to reverse.

[Mira]

The mirror thing has nothing to do with time travel. The river has split up but you don’t move upstream, you move sidewards.

And the whole thing is about Harry making different choices.

Compare with how A wizard can have become a warlock which in the dresdenverse can be the result of only one bad choice. A choice that opens up new pathways and closes others. A choice that can look tempting at times.

A free willed choice of that magnitude, the mirror world creating magnitude, especially with magic involved changes who you are and is difficult to reverse.

But in that world, not the one you belong in..  Also you are assuming that Harry would make a different choice in the mirror world, Harry remains who he is, in both worlds.  The effects on others might be different, but at the core, Harry is who he is.  In Mirror Mirror, while the Kirk in the other world was evil, Kirk remained who he was in both worlds.

[Arjan]

But in that world, not the one you belong in..  Also you are assuming that Harry would make a different choice in the mirror world, Harry remains who he is, in both worlds.  The effects on others might be different, but at the core, Harry is who he is.  In Mirror Mirror, while the Kirk in the other world was evil, Kirk remained who he was in both worlds.

If Mirror Harry made a important free willed choice different from our Harry then he will be a different Harry. That kind of choices are the choices that shape your soul. That is why the butters tried to stop Harry when he tried to kill Rudolph, that choice would have resulted in a different Harry.

That is why a wizard who breaks the law is not the same wizard anymore. Sure he has free will and he sometimes can come back but he will be marked by that decision.

So the mirror Harry became evil. Our Harry made different choices so he is a different Harry whatever world he is.

[morriswalters]

How do you get an evil Harry out of that?  Yes, "The City on the Edge of Forever" is about changing one event, even with the best of intentions can have evil consequences.  However none of the characters in the story were evil.  McCoy, Kirk, Spock, or Edith Keeler were evil, on the contrary, Edith was rather saintly and ahead of her time in many of her ideas.  That was the problem, when McCoy saved her life she was able to convince those in power to carry through with her ideas.  That in of itself wasn't evil, but it made it impossible to fight effectively the great evil brewing at the time, Hitler, thus Hitler wins the war which destroys the future for everyone.  Or if Earth still survive, it could never evolve into becoming a member of the Federation of Planets.  The moral of that episode could be "the road to hell is often paved with the best of intentions.."

I also have a problem with the idea of an evil Harry as tempting at it is to so many.  First of all, is it Harry observing an evil version of himself?  If it is, I think that violates some basic laws of time travel.  Now it could be that it does happen sending serious ripples of time out everywhere really screwing things up.  If it is Harry himself that goes all dark, is he aware of it?  And if he is dark, why would he want to change, or go back to where he belongs for that matter?

I get Evil Harry because it's cool and I like it.

[Dina]

If Mirror Harry made a important free willed choice different from our Harry then he will be a different Harry. That kind of choices are the choices that shape your soul. That is why the butters tried to stop Harry when he tried to kill Rudolph, that choice would have resulted in a different Harry.

That is why a wizard who breaks the law is not the same wizard anymore. Sure he has free will and he sometimes can come back but he will be marked by that decision.

So the mirror Harry became evil. Our Harry made different choices so he is a different Harry whatever world he is.

I agree every choice changes the person. I don't think that our Harry can change to be someone as evil as MM seems to be just because one decision. Or two. It has to be really slippery. So, again I hope it is that his choice did not made him evil but more vulnerable to external corruption and that is what make him evil (probably a Denarian??)

[Arjan]

I agree every choice changes the person. I don't think that our Harry can change to be someone as evil as MM seems to be just because one decision. Or two. It has to be really slippery. So, again I hope it is that his choice did not made him evil but more vulnerable to external corruption and that is what make him evil (probably a Denarian??)

It is more like every choice in a certain direction makes the next choice in that direction easier and the opposite choice more difficult, especially if magic is involved.

Also we have seen Harry's condition after Grave Peril and that was when he saved Susan from an even worse fate, she could escape and handle her condition. If he had made the choice the white council had liked him to make and sacrificed Susan for "Peace" his condition would have been much worse.

And Harry is capable of making very bad decisions in such a condition.

[Dina]

That is true

[Wicked Woodpecker of West]

But in that world, not the one you belong in..  Also you are assuming that Harry would make a different choice in the mirror world, Harry remains who he is, in both worlds.  The effects on others might be different, but at the core, Harry is who he is.  In Mirror Mirror, while the Kirk in the other world was evil, Kirk remained who he was in both worlds.

If people are WHO they are in strict sense, there would be no free will whatsoever - just nature playing itself just like Mab or Uriel does.
Free Will, Choice means - the character is able to take both choices, that he has in himself ability to choose.

And Harry definitely have some dark, dark potential - people would not faint at his Soulgaze otherwise.

The point for Butcher is to find possible choice earlier which chosen otherwise would gave us first step for Harry into deeper Dresden. Not a choice to turn him into mustacho twirling villain from the get go.

If Mirror Harry made a important free willed choice different from our Harry then he will be a different Harry. That kind of choices are the choices that shape your soul. That is why the butters tried to stop Harry when he tried to kill Rudolph, that choice would have resulted in a different Harry.

TBH one could agree Harry already made a choice to kill Rudolph. Butters changed consequences not choice itself.
But also in terms of souls - WOJ says otherwise - choices rarely changes soul - because soul already have potential of multiple choices in it's essence. And if you look into a soul - you see them - not just those active and realised - like with Molly's Soul - multiple fates, multiple possibilities, roads not yet taken, shadows of things...

It would change though - Sight. Sight is more about what's now around person. Soul is about immovable essence.
Or at least that's how I understand soul theory from WOJ.

So, again I hope it is that his choice did not made him evil but more vulnerable to external corruption and that is what make him evil (probably a Denarian??)

I think Darth Dresden will likely be necromancer.

Also we have seen Harry's condition after Grave Peril and that was when he saved Susan from an even worse fate, she could escape and handle her condition. If he had made the choice the white council had liked him to make and sacrificed Susan for "Peace" his condition would have been much worse.

And Harry is capable of making very bad decisions in such a condition.

Problem with this for me - is considering Harry state in "Grave Peril" I cannot see him at all submitting to peace offer.
It's... this thought does not even cross his mind really. I'd like to see something more subtle, smaller that leads to some catastrophe - possibly Michael's dead and Amoracchius destroyed or smth. I can more likely see Dresden fucking up more severly while trying to save Susan than leaving her for Reds.

[morriswalters]

Here's the dilemma. If you can't read the future, what good is the exercise of free will? At best you're guessing.  What you can do is to be true to yourself. So Harry is the type of man that couldn't walk away. And if he does then he has abandoned what it is to be him.

[Arjan]

Here's the dilemma. If you can't read the future, what good is the exercise of free will? At best you're guessing.  What you can do is to be true to yourself. So Harry is the type of man that couldn't walk away. And if he does then he has abandoned what it is to be him.

The idea is that you make the decision in line with the person you want to be and then you become that person.

"Shame, child, is for those who fail to live up to the ideal of what they believe they should be."

[KurtinStGeorge]

I think the thing that might start to radically change Harry would be if whatever decision he made differently in Grave Peril led to a decision to become the Winter Knight after the events of Summer Knight.  Even if the White Council didn't try to turn Harry over to the Red Court, that doesn't mean that Mab couldn't find a way to get Harry to act as her emissary.  If Harry decided to put Lloyd Slate out of his misery he could have become the Winter Knight before he was ready to handle everything that comes with the job.   

[Mira]

And Harry definitely have some dark, dark potential - people would not faint at his Soulgaze otherwise.

That is an assumption, or they might see an avenging angel, which would also make them faint.

TBH one could agree Harry already made a choice to kill Rudolph. Butters changed consequences not choice itself.

But Harry didn't kill Rudolph, in the emotion of the moment, yes, he wanted to and tried.  However the Sword of Faith by giving him a good burn sobered him up from his emotion.  In that moment he then chose not to do it, and felt shame that he had tried to do it. 

I agree every choice changes the person. I don't think that our Harry can change to be someone as evil as MM seems to be just because one decision. Or two. It has to be really slippery. So, again I hope it is that his choice did not made him evil but more vulnerable to external corruption and that is what make him evil (probably a Denarian??)

While I agree that choices can change a person, I don't think it is all that simple.  For starters is there a WOJ saying that MM is going to be about evil Harry?  We've already been down that Denarian road with Lasciel, he didn't become evil as a result, he did have good people around him that made him realize what was happening, Butters and Murphy.. But if Harry had really gone postal what they told him wouldn't have done any good.  That's why the emphasis on his father and that Harry had inherited Malcolm's good heart.  Harry will never go totally dark because of that.

I think the thing that might start to radically change Harry would be if whatever decision he made differently in Grave Peril led to a decision to become the Winter Knight after the events of Summer Knight.  Even if the White Council didn't try to turn Harry over to the Red Court, that doesn't mean that Mab couldn't find a way to get Harry to act as her emissary.  If Harry decided to put Lloyd Slate out of his misery he could have become the Winter Knight before he was ready to handle everything that comes with the job.   

Yes, and you also have to look at motive for the choice in the first place.  Harry didn't want the job as Winter Knight, he was forced to make the best of several very bad choices.  It is also strange how the White Council is so quick to condemn Harry, when as a rule Harry thinks very highly of the White Council, in spite of everything.

The idea is that you make the decision in line with the person you want to be and then you become that person.

Except Harry has never wanted to be the "Evil Wizard of the West."   

"Shame, child, is for those who fail to live up to the ideal of what they believe they should be."

Spoken by someone who is no longer human.  We know that in that aspect Harry is very human and feels lots of shame when he doesn't live up to what he feels he should be.