Anyone else... disappointed? [PT/BG spoilers]

[Mira]

Now the whole two chicks thing... Idk. Butters doesn't wear it well imo. I can't think of a specific reasoning for it.. unless the threat to punch Dresden was an indication of butters slow fall from grace, with the wolf chicks being part of the lynch pin.

I don't think that, Butters is one of my favorite characters, I called it and got credit for predicting he'd be a Knight of the Cross someday.  What bothers me about the two chick thing is it seems so out of character for him.  It is like Jim is trying too hard to make Butters cool, and it falls flat.  What makes Butters such a great character in my opinion is he is small and often scared for his body, but intellectually he is a hero.  He takes stands for the truth, and does his best.  The two chick thing is a distraction, maybe he has been hanging around Bob for too long?  Sigh.... Polka will never die!

[StrayDog]

What bothers me about the two chick thing is it seems so out of character for him.  It is like Jim is trying too hard to make Butters cool, and it falls flat. The two chick thing is a distraction, maybe he has been hanging around Bob for too long?  Sigh.... Polka will never die!

Wasn't it insinuated that the girls were already in a relationship from their first introduction? At the very least roommates or besties. Not sure if giving Butters two girls is making him cool or not, that's for JB to explain but it doesn't fall flat for me. I don't mind Butters being a KotC but think he would have been better as the resourceful "muggle" wizard making excellent use of Bob to fight baddies.

[StrayDog]

Look back at Michael and Harry in the Train Station fighting off Hobs in the Myrk. Were the Swords of Faith not inspiring enough? As late as Skin Game he has Michael in the vault using the sword and his faith to save Harry in one of the scarier fights Jim has written.

Sorry for being pedantic here but JB has been very careful to list the swords as love, hope, and faith. This seems to be very significant given the ongoing theme that names have power. Humans throwing them around like hand grenades and all. Didn't Michael use his faith to call in God's intervention and end Tessa's attack? Esperacchius was in his hand, glowing and all, but it wasn't the swords work.

[Mira]

Wasn't it insinuated that the girls were already in a relationship from their first introduction? At the very least roommates or besties. Not sure if giving Butters two girls is making him cool or not, that's for JB to explain but it doesn't fall flat for me. I don't mind Butters being a KotC but think he would have been better as the resourceful "muggle" wizard making excellent use of Bob to fight baddies.

But it is a distraction and Butters deserves better than that.  I think his Sword became a light saber because the source of his strength is his mind and the courage he has always had to stand up for the truth no matter the personal cost.  He has been at his best as I see it when he is giving Harry his straight analyses devoid of emotional investment because Harry is also his friend.

[StrayDog]

But it is a distraction and Butters deserves better than that. 

I still disagree but different opinions are what makes life interesting.

I think his Sword became a light saber because the source of his strength is his mind and the courage he has always had to stand up for the truth no matter the personal cost.  He has been at his best as I see it when he is giving Harry his straight analyses devoid of emotional investment because Harry is also his friend.

All true and explainable but JB can accomplish all of his goals without making Fidelacchius a lightsaber

[Mira]

All true and explainable but JB can accomplish all of his goals without making Fidelacchius a lightsaber

Actually, when you think about it, no, he couldn't.  Butters is neither a warrior, or an athlete, so picking up the skills needed in a short time to be a Holy Knight would be difficult without cheating a bit.  The light Saber is that bit of a cheat, in my opinion.  Now if Butters had become a Knight back in  book four or five, he would have had the years needed to developer skills as he went along.

[morriswalters]

Sorry for being pedantic here but JB has been very careful to list the swords as love, hope, and faith. This seems to be very significant given the ongoing theme that names have power. Humans throwing them around like hand grenades and all. Didn't Michael use his faith to call in God's intervention and end Tessa's attack? Esperacchius was in his hand, glowing and all, but it wasn't the swords work.

I said the sword........and his faith. Names make them characters in the story.  Each has had a story line through their wielders. Jim changes the essential nature of the sword to make Butter's able to wield it.

Once again, the swords clashed, only things were different now. Instead of Sanya dominating the fight, Butters had the edge. Esperacchius darted and whirled, liquid smooth, but as fast as Sanya was with his blade, the steel sword wasn’t weightless.

Butcher, Jim. Peace Talks (Dresden Files) (p. 173). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

Butters can cut up a bridge in Chicago but he can no longer have a sword fight. I've already commented on why Butters is part of a ménage à trois, and it has nothing to do with sex.

[Dina]

Butters reached his peak in Dead Beat, when having nothing, he chose to stand and fight, knowing that he would probably die. I almost lost my mind I was so excited.

Then, in hero journey that ran at the speed of light, he becomes the magic skateboard rider who screws over his friends and gets a magic weapon. And by next books has abs of steel and two sex partners who are werewolves. And a sword so powerful Jim has to nerf it. It isn't so much that I hate Butter's as it is that he didn't earn what Jim gave him. /end rant

I highlighted those parts because I see a contradiction in what you say. He earned the Knighthood by being bold and taking the decision to fight against evil. (And I loved what you told us about SW)

Butters has trained a lot, so of course his physicality got much better, but even so, he was not as good a fighter as Sanya and he messed up in his last attack. I see nothing difficult to believe there.

[morriswalters]

Yeah I loved Star Wars until one day I didn't.  They milked it to death.  Plus young people will never see the Star Wars that I(we) saw, since Lucas retconned it with CGI.  I had hopes for the last three, but...  On the brighter side we now have Baby Yoda.

The leap from a frightened out of your mind dweeb to a guy that overcame his terror is a much greater then the leap  he made in Skin Game. In Skin Game it was about regaining faith in Harry.  But what we take away from the books is very much a product of our expectations I suppose. Maybe I want too much.  For the first time in the series I can't make myself listen to the audio book even though I bought it.

[StrayDog]

Actually, when you think about it, no, he couldn't.  Butters is neither a warrior, or an athlete, so picking up the skills needed in a short time to be a Holy Knight would be difficult without cheating a bit.  The light Saber is that bit of a cheat, in my opinion.  Now if Butters had become a Knight back in  book four or five, he would have had the years needed to developer skills as he went along.

You've touched on my initial point. This is all assuming Butters needs to be a Knight by the end of SG. I would rather Murphy was the wieldier of the sword of Faith and Butters stayed the resourceful one fighting with his brains and raw nerve.

[Mira]

You've touched on my initial point. This is all assuming Butters needs to be a Knight by the end of SG. I would rather Murphy was the wieldier of the sword of Faith and Butters stayed the resourceful one fighting with his brains and raw nerve.

Murphy's problem is she never could reconcile herself to the basic rules of the Swords.  A Knight's job isn't to judge or execute, but to give the coin holder a chance to give up the coin and seek redemption.  I think Butters is okay with that, he has always had an open mind.

No, he didn't gain his peak in Dead Beat, he only further proved what he did when he took a demotion and spent time in a mental hospital rather than take back what he witnessed on the table in the morgue.  As Michael said, it isn't about the blade, maybe even not about a great fighter, it is the mind and the heart behind it.

[TrueMonk]

My main frustration is that everyone who jumped fast where described "like being pulled by wires". And the seven or so references to Butters really having improved due to his knight training.

Personally every single book Jim has written has been perfect for me except PT and BG. But at least for me, doing some work while going through personal problems that makes it take six times longer than normal does not improve the end result.

If some people cannot handle a single bad duology in a series of 25 books then my guess is 25 book long series are not your thing.

On a similar note, few people seem to agree on what should have been different except in very general terms. E.g. Someone suggested Murphy should have died off screen while I found that scene particular scene to be perfect and would have thought her dying off screen would be horrible.

I wish that there had been more time for editing and beta reading input implementation. But it is also my guess that not publishing for six years (or something) reduces your bargaining power significantly. Imagine of they had decided, ok one more rewrite and it would not have been published this year. I would also guess that at some point it has been rewritten so much that the author cannot do it anymore.

[TrueMonk]

Also, I did not really think anything about Butters being with two girls before reading people's reactions here on the forum. Ok, so we have a good guy who is not in a normal relationship, but in a triangle. I mainly paid attention to that Harry managed to shut up and not make fun of him.

Borrowing a page from the person answering about people star wars background; is it because you are not used to anything but traditional couples?

The main complaint I read is that it is because they think Jim is trying to make Butters cooler. But he was already with what I guess is the hottest mortal in the series in a conventional cool guy sense(a very athletic redhead with big breasts). Does it really add that much that there is another girl?

If I had to say what it gives to the story I would say Jim is underlining that the knights do not have to be traditional Christians in yet another way. I approve of that because he has already shown the perfect Christian classic knight in Micheal.

[morriswalters]

If some people cannot handle a single bad duology in a series of 25 books then my guess is 25 book long series are not your thing.

I'm sure Jim will continue to be successful with or without my approval. But just out of curiosity could you name a series with 25 books that has an over arching back story? I'm currently bored to tears.

On Butters.  You miss the intent of the threesome even though it is in your reply.

[TrueMonk]

I know it is not really the same as 25 books, but wheel of time is at 4 million words and Dresden Files is at around 2 million currently. ( I only used one source for each so I could be wrong)

https://sites.google.com/site/batuhanswebsitecom/wheel-of-time
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://amp.reddit.com/r/dresdenfiles/comments/29lhkq/word_count_for_all_books/&ved=2ahUKEwizzNL1sKvsAhUE_CoKHYPPAg4QFjAAegQIEhAB&usg=AOvVaw3eyBi2eG9HYwCr5j2cWrdN

I am only one third through wheel of time, but from what I can read it is widely accepted that a couple of the middle ones are not so good. I think it is just very unlikely to write 25 good books in a row, regardless of whether they have an overarching story or not. So of one bad book is enough to stop you from read the rest of the series then my guess would be you would never get to no. 25.

But now I read it as being bored with more than just the single book, then I guess there is not much hope.

On Butters, I reread my post, but I cannot figure out what you mean.