Battle Ground spoilers: Harry’s pairing. What do you think?

[The_Sibelis]

So your point isn't that the term pagan is incorrect, but that it's offensive?

The term pagan was invented by Christians to describe non-Christians. It was used in a derogatory manner. Pagan means basically the same thing as peasant, hick, villain, etc. At some point it came to mean "not monotheistic," but retains many of the other meanings.

my point is pagan is not a religion, it's a description OF religions. If I asked, for instance, what is the pagan creation myth, there isn't just one that can be pointed to. It is... Misapplied.. and at its root it is kinda offensive depending on who says it to who.

[Bad Alias]

Arjan correctly used the term.

But the Sidhe are basically pagans. ... Marriage is older than Christianity.

By juxtaposing pagans and Christianity it's clear he means not Christian. That's one of the definitions. The Sidhe are "not Christian."

It's not correct to say the Sidhe are not pagan. It is simply false.

I don't have any objection to you saying "pagan" is an offensive term, is too vague, etc. But to call the Sidhe Celtic is also too vague. Celtic doesn't mean "not Christian." It means of or relating to the Celts and their languages.

The statements "But the Sidhe are basically [Celtic] and Harry is sworn to her. I think she won’t give anyone the opportunity to object. Marriage is older than Christianity and can take a lot of forms." don't make any sense in context. Pre-Christian Celtic would work though.

[The_Sibelis]

What are their pagan beliefs then? What makes them pagan? Other than a derogatory denotation? Also, we don't actually know they aren't christian per se. Lea responds deeper to Michaels oath on the blood of christ than any other thing. They also adhere to the three primary movers of faith, keeping to ones word hope,to do ones duty and love, homestead laws. So how are they pagan when they pay lip service to TWG and hold no faith of their own? Why, I could argue they are christian (heck, Santa Clause is a fae and Mab respects Christmas, Christ's day) in that that is the only deity they show deference towards.

[Arjan]

What are their pagan beliefs then?

Their whole attitude is pre Christian.

What makes them pagan? Other than a derogatory denotation? Also, we don't actually know they aren't christian per se. Lea responds deeper to Michaels oath on the blood of christ than any other thing.

It is serious power. She recognizes that. But that is not the same as being a Christian.

They also adhere to the three primary movers of faith, keeping to ones word hope,to do ones duty and love, homestead laws.

Duty? Love? Homestead laws?

Those are not specific Christian values. To claim that is more insulting than using the word pagan as meaning non Christian.

So how are they pagan when they pay lip service to TWG and hold no faith of their own?

They are, or mostly were, the objects of faith. And mark how Mab talks about the white god. She recognizes him as a power but it is not her god, the term itself is a giveaway. It is a Viking term to introduce a foreign god.

And of course she is better at torturing people. Tree days at a cross, Slate suffered more.

Why, I could argue they are christian (heck, Santa Clause is a fae and Mab respects Christmas, Christ's day) in that that is the only deity they show deference towards.

Christmas is a pagan festival with some very superficial Christian additions. Kringle is certainly not a Christian saint. That tree is not a representation of the cross and that sacrificial turkey is not the body of Christ.

[The_Sibelis]

@arjan, it is not insulting, the three powers actually are spoke of in the bible and those things are how the Sidhe respect them. Duty is the hope of every warrior, Maeve, who was infected with fearbringer, didn't do her duty. the parallels exist.
Being prechristian, which they aren't would mean they were before christ, most Celtic, Norse, ect mythology runs concurrently, not before. And if the tuatha were protoSidhe, existing before them, they do NOT come from prechristianity.
Christmas is a pagan what? Pagan has no beliefs of its own, we've already set that standard. The tree gods most call pagan were again, Celtic. Now Santa bring gifts for Christmas and so does mab, she doesn't give maggie the ring based on another holiday similar to Christmas, she says it directly, Christmas present.

[Arjan]

@arjan, it is not insulting, the three powers actually are spoke of in the bible and those things are how the Sidhe respect them. Duty is the hope of every warrior, Maeve, who was infected with fearbringer, didn't do her duty. the parallels exist.

To claim them as specifically Christian is and that is what is done if claimed as proof for Christianity.

Being prechristian, which they aren't would mean they were before christ, most Celtic, Norse, ect mythology runs concurrently, not before.

They represent a different tradition. You can discuss the age of that tradition but that is ultimately a meaningless discussion. There are similarities in the indo European gods that point to a very old tradition

And if the tuatha were protoSidhe, existing before them, they do NOT come from prechristianity.

They are ultimately derived from the Celtic gods and how old they were nobody knows. The romans encountered them in Gaul.

Christmas is a pagan what? Pagan has no beliefs of its own, we've already set that standard.

Define we in this context. The pagan religions Christianity encountered in the west have a few things in common.

Atheism has no beliefs of its own. Most pagan beliefs share some characteristics.

The tree gods most call pagan were again, Celtic. Now Santa bring gifts for Christmas and so does mab, she doesn't give maggie the ring based on another holiday similar to Christmas, she says it directly, Christmas present.

Syncretism is a very interesting thing. When is something pagan or Christian or both? The names are not the most important thing.

The Mayan gods are still worshipped. Sometimes they got a saint name and a festival but the forms are still recognizable and do the worshippers think about their god or the Christian saint during the procession? Sometimes it is clear when they have other rites with other priests as well.

https://www.vagabondjourney.com/maya-and-catholic-religious-syncretism-at-chamula-mexico/

Christmas has so many pagan elements that any pagan or neo pagan can claim it as his own including Mab.

[The_Sibelis]

To claim them as specifically Christian is and that is what is done if claimed as proof for Christianity.

I actually just said I COULD argue they were. And you realize this is DF christianity yes? Ergo no, no it's not insulting. Get back in the book a little. Because I could claim this gratuitous use of pagan is insulting.

They represent a different tradition. You can discuss the age of that tradition but that is ultimately a meaningless discussion.

no, that's directly relevant to this discussion.

There are similarities in the indo European gods that point to a very old tradition
They are ultimately derived from the Celtic gods and how old they were nobody knows. The romans encountered them in Gaul.Define we in this context.The pagan religions Christianity encountered in the west have a few things in common.

well what a coincidence, Christianity has a few things in common with these 'pagan' religions too. All kinds of holidays, customs adopted ect. Point being?

Atheism has no beliefs of its own.

actually the denial of a higher power, otherwise it becomes agnostic, like Sanya

Most pagan beliefs share some characteristics. Syncretism is a very interesting thing. When is something pagan or Christian or both? The names are not the most important thing.

why thank you, the names not important, they share so much you just made my point for me.

The Mayan gods are still worshipped. Sometimes they got a saint name and a festival but the forms are still recognizable and do the worshippers think about their god or the Christian saint during the procession? Sometimes it is clear when they have other rites with other priests as well.

https://www.vagabondjourney.com/maya-and-catholic-religious-syncretism-at-chamula-mexico/

Christmas has so many pagan elements that any pagan or neo pagan can claim it as his own including Mab.

in fact, if paganism and christianity are so interelated, it's be hard to prove TWG doesn't have those aspects as part of it's whole too.

[Nivarius]

It seems to me that Mab has probably more than one or two reasons for wanting to marry Harry to Lara.

I'd argue, given what we've seen in recent books, that Mab always tries to protect Harry (despite Harry's objections that she would only care for a Knight who can protect himself, she's been doing a lot to help him or prevent him from doing mistakes). So I assume that her main reason for her to make them marry is to protect Harry. She wanted it to happen right away. Why? Most people thought it was to torture Harry, but what had just happened? Harry had just been kicked off the WC, so he's basically defenseless. An alliance/marriage with Lara would mean one thing to Harry's potential enemies: if you attack him, you attack the WCV. Mab cannot protect her Knight openly, or it would make him look weak, but by giving him an ally who is basically a Chief of State of an Accorded Nation, attacking Harry would mean a lot more to potential random enemies (it's not gonna stop Mavra or some crazies/really powerful enemies, but it can stop others).

Second, Mab has to repay the favors she owes to Lara, and from her point of view, there's no reason not to strengthen Winter's position by making a more permanent and reliable ally out of the WCV, especially since Lara is such a good political player.

Third, the marriage is meant to piss off Molly, and to basically tell her to forget her human emotions and to start acting like a Queen of Winter. Mab said she was lacking and too dangerous to become Mab right now. Considering what we've seen about Mab, it's probably about being "cold" enough to put your feelings aside and do what's necessary. And Molly can't say no to Harry and will always run to help him, even if it means somewhat endangering her duties as a Winter Queen or exhausting herself and leaving her vulnerable.

Fourth, it widens the gap between Harry and the WC. From what we've seen at the end of BG, the Accorded Nations don't trust the WC, or they would have invited them to their private talks. One-Eye and Mab at least know that they're probably at least somewhat directed by either Nemesis or the Black Council (or both). It also protects Harry from the WC, because basically killing Harry would mean waging war on two Accorded Nations, which even the WC might be reluctant to do, especially in their weakened state.

Fifth, it protects Harry from Lara. She might be a "good guy" nowadays, but she still puts her interests or that of her family/Court first. Making Harry part of that family would make her less likely to kill him for political reasons.

Also, I agree that Lara totally knew what she was asking. She's completely in femme fatale falling for the detective mode right now. Freydis told us as much in PT.

[bigdangmoose]

Sibelius, if you go and look at the history of the church, they have taken a lot of pagan holidays and slapped Christian beliefs to them. Christmas wasn't a holiday of giving gifts. There was a pagan holiday of gift giving. The church took the pagan holiday, slapped the name Christmas on it, and made it a church holiday

[Mira]

Sibelius, if you go and look at the history of the church, they have taken a lot of pagan holidays and slapped Christian beliefs to them. Christmas wasn't a holiday of giving gifts. There was a pagan holiday of gift giving. The church took the pagan holiday, slapped the name Christmas on it, and made it a church holiday

Yes, it was a way to gain converts to Christianity.  The local pagans perhaps didn't care to warm up to a spoil sport religion.  Besides some of the festivals they continued to practice anyway in spite of the new religion, so they were simply incorporated them and gave them new meanings. 

[Arjan]

Yes, it was a way to gain converts to Christianity.  The local pagans perhaps didn't care to warm up to a spoil sport religion.  Besides some of the festivals they continued to practice anyway in spite of the new religion, so they were simply incorporated them and gave them new meanings.

Or they changed some trappings and names to hide their religion from their oppressors. The difference is difficult to see sometimes.

[Regenbogen]

It seems to me that Mab has probably more than one or two reasons for wanting to marry Harry to Lara.

I'd argue, given what we've seen in recent books, that Mab always tries to protect Harry (despite Harry's objections that she would only care for a Knight who can protect himself, she's been doing a lot to help him or prevent him from doing mistakes). So I assume that her main reason for her to make them marry is to protect Harry. She wanted it to happen right away. Why? Most people thought it was to torture Harry, but what had just happened? Harry had just been kicked off the WC, so he's basically defenseless. An alliance/marriage with Lara would mean one thing to Harry's potential enemies: if you attack him, you attack the WCV. Mab cannot protect her Knight openly, or it would make him look weak, but by giving him an ally who is basically a Chief of State of an Accorded Nation, attacking Harry would mean a lot more to potential random enemies (it's not gonna stop Mavra or some crazies/really powerful enemies, but it can stop others).

Second, Mab has to repay the favors she owes to Lara, and from her point of view, there's no reason not to strengthen Winter's position by making a more permanent and reliable ally out of the WCV, especially since Lara is such a good political player.

Third, the marriage is meant to piss off Molly, and to basically tell her to forget her human emotions and to start acting like a Queen of Winter. Mab said she was lacking and too dangerous to become Mab right now. Considering what we've seen about Mab, it's probably about being "cold" enough to put your feelings aside and do what's necessary. And Molly can't say no to Harry and will always run to help him, even if it means somewhat endangering her duties as a Winter Queen or exhausting herself and leaving her vulnerable.

Fourth, it widens the gap between Harry and the WC. From what we've seen at the end of BG, the Accorded Nations don't trust the WC, or they would have invited them to their private talks. One-Eye and Mab at least know that they're probably at least somewhat directed by either Nemesis or the Black Council (or both). It also protects Harry from the WC, because basically killing Harry would mean waging war on two Accorded Nations, which even the WC might be reluctant to do, especially in their weakened state.

Fifth, it protects Harry from Lara. She might be a "good guy" nowadays, but she still puts her interests or that of her family/Court first. Making Harry part of that family would make her less likely to kill him for political reasons.

Also, I agree that Lara totally knew what she was asking. She's completely in femme fatale falling for the detective mode right now. Freydis told us as much in PT.

And (not sure I have posted that already somewhere) maybe Mab intends Lara to teach Harry how to behave diplomatically on political events. To prepare him for a more politically active role for Winter.

[StrayDog]

From an author's view: yes absolutely! There are myriad directions this can be taken, many that have been expressed in this forum.

From Harry's view: Suck it up buttercup! You made the deal, have some integrity for once. Lara is in the Venatori with Thomas, a founder of the BFS, has the same view on family, and can deal with the Winter Knight Mantel in the sack. The list goes on and on.

From Mab's view: Far too many to list, this is a no brainer.

From Lara's view: Suck it up buttercup! You called a favor from Mab without proper framing. How many centuries old are you? You're the head of the White Court for Pete's sake, do better if you didn't like this turn. ESPECIALLY WHEN DEALING WITH MAB!!!

From Molly's view: Ouch!! The mantel as well as Harry's feelings keep your relationship platonic. You hope to have a marriage with your lover Lara, think you both have worked Mab only to be out maneuvered. Now you are tasked with making a marriage happen between your two loves. Again, OUCH!!

From my view: OH HELL YES!!! Murph was never going to last unless she became immortal somehow. I figured she was on the list to be written out at the end of Changes. Granted I thought she would end up a Knight of the Cross and be sidelined that way but when Molly was taken as Winter Lady I knew Murphy was going to die. With Lara there is so much to work with. One book of the two of them trying to prevent the marriage only to be married. One book of them trying to get out of the marriage but still failing, however, because they have to work so closely together they start having feelings. One or more books of them struggling with these feelings before giving in and actually being in love. Then the whole mess that being in True Love will bring about. I say YES!!

[Arjan]

And (not sure I have posted that already somewhere) maybe Mab intends Lara to teach Harry how to behave diplomatically on political events. To prepare him for a more politically active role for Winter.

Harry seducing people? That could be hilarious.

[bigdangmoose]

From an author's view: yes absolutely! There are myriad directions this can be taken, many that have been expressed in this forum.

From Harry's view: Suck it up buttercup! You made the deal, have some integrity for once. Lara is in the Venatori with Thomas, a founder of the BFS, has the same view on family, and can deal with the Winter Knight Mantel in the sack. The list goes on and on.

From Mab's view: Far too many to list, this is a no brainer.

From Lara's view: Suck it up buttercup! You called a favor from Mab without proper framing. How many centuries old are you? You're the head of the White Court for Pete's sake, do better if you didn't like this turn. ESPECIALLY WHEN DEALING WITH MAB!!!

From Molly's view: Ouch!! The mantel as well as Harry's feelings keep your relationship platonic. You hope to have a marriage with your lover Lara, think you both have worked Mab only to be out maneuvered. Now you are tasked with making a marriage happen between your two loves. Again, OUCH!!

From my view: OH HELL YES!!! Murph was never going to last unless she became immortal somehow. I figured she was on the list to be written out at the end of Changes. Granted I thought she would end up a Knight of the Cross and be sidelined that way but when Molly was taken as Winter Lady I knew Murphy was going to die. With Lara there is so much to work with. One book of the two of them trying to prevent the marriage only to be married. One book of them trying to get out of the marriage but still failing, however, because they have to work so closely together they start having feelings. One or more books of them struggling with these feelings before giving in and actually being in love. Then the whole mess that being in True Love will bring about. I say YES!!

Huh? What are you talking about. Molly and Lara, lovers? While I would love to see that with Harry included, I haven't seen anything suggesting it.