Inconsistent characters & storytelling

[sayyadina]

I've noticed some really frustrating inconsistencies with both how Jim writes and the characters themselves in both Peace Talks and Battle Ground. There really aren't any words for how upsetting this is, since Dresden Files was my last fandom standing.

It seems he has left off with a lot of the normal description and world building, leaving most of the story to dialogue. Feels really jarring and hard to follow at times.

Then all of the character don't seem like themselves. I've been in a massive reread so I know how these characters act. There are moments where it happens like a real Dresden Files book and everyone is in character. Then things seem off. There's one moment where a character says stuff that another character should be saying. How in the heck did this get past the betas and editors? Assuming the betas and editors are compenent and Jim's not surrounded by yes men who won't tell him when he's lost the plot.

It also doesn't feel like there's been enough build up to what the Fomor are. Makes it hard to get into the story. Plus how it seems like 90% of the story seems to happen off screen...though that could be helped with more exposition.

I get that his life was chaos and he was experimenting with these books. I know all too well how stuff can happen that totally disrupts everything. I was just hoping for a Dresden Files book where the characters, including Harry, were in character. I understand the problems with his publisher. I was willing to forgive all this until I got to this one part where one charcter is speaking another character's dialogue.

I wanted to like this. With everyting going on, I needed this to be enjoyable. Instead its just something else that's screwed up and gone. Really don't see how the series recovers from this. Its been a fun ride and I'm grateful for 15 good books. Looks like it just ends with Skin Game and I need to find a new series to enjoy.

[Yuillegan]

Sounds like you're pretty upset about it, and that's fair. Everyone reacts their own way.

The writing changes massively over the series, because Jim was only 25 or so when he started the series. He just wasn't as good a writer back then. He has obviously also grown and changed as a person over the last 20 years, as people do. And while some core things remain the same, they also refine too.

So reading the earlier series definitely feels different because it's written by a rather different Jim. And that's why sometimes the tone and feel is different. At least that's my take.

Personally, I am rather happy with the changes by and large. Some of Jim's earlier writing was a bit more immature and a bit less well done. But I am not particularly upset about that, as the guy was just doing his best at it at the time. Which is still a lot better than a lot of people out there. And certainly better than anything I have ever written. So you know, I try not to judge too harshly.

I get that there are issues. And I do feel there were some slightly jarring moments. But, he did have a particularly difficult writing period. And to me, he still produced the most interesting and exciting books to date. Sure, they are not the most humorous. But the series has evolved beyond gumshoe wizard goes around Chicago. And that's the nature of long series. If he didn't develop it at all, it would be Poirot or Morse or something. And even they have development, to a point. I think people would give up in droves because their would be not enough exploration and natural expansion and growth.

My advice, if I can be that bold, is just take a beat. Maybe you've just moved on from the series. Maybe you can always reread you're favourites. But I think hanging in for the long haul will be rewarding, if you're prepared to just appreciate it for what it is. Don't lose hope. Jim always delivers eventually imo.

[Mpol]

I felt these changes in PT to some characters but not in BG.

Lara had a long game to play and her scenes in BG felt like herself. She needed Harry in PT to gain her goals. Her persona was polite but she too liked Harry after the events of TC more it seems. I need to reread the series to see how her actions in PT truly felt.

Eb and Carlos were the big ones for me. Both I can rationalise to a point. But their energy felt off. I feel Nemesis is running wild in the council and has one or both of them. Eb felt more in character. Carlos has his reasons.

Justine is explained at the end.

Who else did you feel felt out of whack? There was a lot going on in this book.

[SerScot]

Eb and Carlos (who I have loved in past books) really felt “off”.

[Mira]

I think this is what happens when six years passes between books.  Life has happened, he is writing other books, times have changed very rapidly..  So while yeah, while originally all of it has come from his mind, after six years he might have to go back and reread what he himself wrote least he lose the essence of the characters we know and love.  I think that is why some of the characters seem off and some of the subplots out of left field.

[Griffyn612]

I agree that Eb was off in PT, but I think he was more like himself in BG.  He had his psychotic break, and then settled down again, and was himself.

As for as Carlos goes, I think he was different, but that was mostly because of the situation.

• Four years have gone by since they've seen each other.
• Harry became the left hand of the Dark Sidhe, killers and murderers and baby snatchers.
• Undoubtedly word spread that Mab and Harry having sex was broadcast to all of Sidhe territory.
• Harry died, for a while, before coming back by unknown means.
• On his first day back, Harry's apprentice becomes the Winter Lady.
• Despite being back, Harry doesn't check in with the Council or Wardens, other than meeting briefly with Rashid.
• The next time Harry shows up on anyone's radar, he's working with Nicodemus and other known criminals, including someone with a death sentence from the Council.
• Civilians are killed in that encounter.
• Afterwards, Harry continues to not check in or speak to the Council.
• Carlos sees the Winter Lady, who almost kills him after leading him on.
• He sees first-hand how savage a Winter mantle is, and how it can twist people to do horrible things, even to friends.
• Carlos is left scarred and handicapped because he trusted a once-friend who is now tied to Winter.
• To our knowledge, Harry never checks on Carlos, or tries to help him understand what's happening.
• The next time they see each other, Carlos finds Harry with a Wamp.
• The next time, he's coming back from a rendezvous with the defacto White Queen.
• Harry continues to not communicate with Carlos or the Council.
• Harry apparently cuts out of a formal function to have sex with the defacto White Queen.
• Harry breaks guest law to break out a White Court vampire, leaving the White Council guilty by association.
• Harry embarrasses Carlos in front of his superiors and the supernatural leaders of the world.
• Harry shows up again and has apparently enthralled/enlisted an army of Little Folk, twisting them to his will.
• Harry leads them on an assault, dividing their forces in the process and separating the strongest member from the rest.
• Carlos watches two of his friends and allies, who he spent a lot more time with than Harry, who he fought a war beside, die.
• He watches his two friends be taken, presumably to be turned into monsters themselves.
• Harry's immediate concern after that is to find out info from Listens rather than show concern for his dead allies.
• Carlos is then out of the fight for the rest of the night.
• Next thing Carlos hears is that Harry killed humans with magic, the biggest no-no there is.
• When Carlos confronts him, Harry confesses, and shows absolutely zero remorse.

Carlos' attitude seems entirely reasonable under those conditions.  He tried numerous times to talk to Harry, and Harry refused each time.  It's hard for Harry to play the victim card when he was the instrument of the destruction of their friendship.

[b4utoo]

Why should Harry have to defend himself against accusations that any response would lead right back to the white counsel. Harry is a wolf and Carlos is a sheep. Do you stop and explain yourself to a roach? lol But seriously. JimB has way to much story for PT and BG jammed into those two books. He could of easily put down a 3rd book and expanded on relationships and scenery as well as a few other things

[Mira]

Next thing Carlos hears is that Harry killed humans with magic, the biggest no-no there is

Except Carlos also agrees that they were turtlenecks, but then says the White Court definition of humans covers quite a bit of ground.  The Council must of thought they weren't exactly on firm ground either with that one because they suspended the death sentence.  Now if Harry had succeeded in killing Rudy with magic it would have been a different matter.. I bet if you checked Carlos's record he might have killed a few Turtlenecks as well by magic... The whole thing smells of a railroad job.

[Yuillegan]

I agree that Eb was off in PT, but I think he was more like himself in BG.  He had his psychotic break, and then settled down again, and was himself.

As for as Carlos goes, I think he was different, but that was mostly because of the situation.

• Four years have gone by since they've seen each other.
• Harry became the left hand of the Dark Sidhe, killers and murderers and baby snatchers.
• Undoubtedly word spread that Mab and Harry having sex was broadcast to all of Sidhe territory.
• Harry died, for a while, before coming back by unknown means.
• On his first day back, Harry's apprentice becomes the Winter Lady.
• Despite being back, Harry doesn't check in with the Council or Wardens, other than meeting briefly with Rashid.
• The next time Harry shows up on anyone's radar, he's working with Nicodemus and other known criminals, including someone with a death sentence from the Council.
• Civilians are killed in that encounter.
• Afterwards, Harry continues to not check in or speak to the Council.
• Carlos sees the Winter Lady, who almost kills him after leading him on.
• He sees first-hand how savage a Winter mantle is, and how it can twist people to do horrible things, even to friends.
• Carlos is left scarred and handicapped because he trusted a once-friend who is now tied to Winter.
• To our knowledge, Harry never checks on Carlos, or tries to help him understand what's happening.
• The next time they see each other, Carlos finds Harry with a Wamp.
• The next time, he's coming back from a rendezvous with the defacto White Queen.
• Harry continues to not communicate with Carlos or the Council.
• Harry apparently cuts out of a formal function to have sex with the defacto White Queen.
• Harry breaks guest law to break out a White Court vampire, leaving the White Council guilty by association.
• Harry embarrasses Carlos in front of his superiors and the supernatural leaders of the world.
• Harry shows up again and has apparently enthralled/enlisted an army of Little Folk, twisting them to his will.
• Harry leads them on an assault, dividing their forces in the process and separating the strongest member from the rest.
• Carlos watches two of his friends and allies, who he spent a lot more time with than Harry, who he fought a war beside, die.
• He watches his two friends be taken, presumably to be turned into monsters themselves.
• Harry's immediate concern after that is to find out info from Listens rather than show concern for his dead allies.
• Carlos is then out of the fight for the rest of the night.
• Next thing Carlos hears is that Harry killed humans with magic, the biggest no-no there is.
• When Carlos confronts him, Harry confesses, and shows absolutely zero remorse.

Carlos' attitude seems entirely reasonable under those conditions.  He tried numerous times to talk to Harry, and Harry refused each time.  It's hard for Harry to play the victim card when he was the instrument of the destruction of their friendship.

It's great stuff by Jim, because perspective changes how a lot of interactions look in the series. We know that Dresden was just doing his best to keep his head above water. But quite right that from Ramirez's point of view, it looks mighty suspicious.

Like most things in life, it's not a black and white issue. And like most conflicts, a bit more talking and trying to empathize with the other person would go a long way to solving things. But things are a bit far gone. Too much bad stuff has happened and emotions are running high. Sadly, I think it might well end in Carlos dying.

One thing Jim has been doing a long time is trying to show how the road to hell is paved with good intentions. And considering Harry is LITERALLY going to go to hell during the BAT, I'd say Harry is going to find out the hard way. But Uriel did tell Dresden how to find his way back. So it's not all bad. The entire series is a long running analysis of unintended consequences.

[BrainFireBob]

Why should Harry have to defend himself against accusations that any response would lead right back to the white counsel. Harry is a wolf and Carlos is a sheep. Do you stop and explain yourself to a roach? lol But seriously. JimB has way to much story for PT and BG jammed into those two books. He could of easily put down a 3rd book and expanded on relationships and scenery as well as a few other things

The Council are sheep. Carlos is either a fox or wolfhound. Carlos thinks Harry a rabid wolfhound at this point, instead of a wolf who used to play nice.