Duopoly one if the worst “books” in the series-SPOILERS

[gawime]

Yes battleground was action packed. Yes battleground had interesting reveals. But peace talks/battleground was also dumb.

Exhibit A) Thomas. If Justine is nemfected, in what way does throwing your life away help in any way shape or form. Even if it was just a gambit to buy some time, he didn’t tell anyone about the situation, so how can he reasonably expect his child and love to be saved? Thomas is many things, but not dumb. A big part of the plot hinges on Thomas being dumb.
Exhibit B) Thomas ending up in Demonreach. This is an odd turn to say the least. We have never seen a wampire that’s alive yet unable to heal itself. Basically if they’re alive they’re healing. That’s been true the entire series. But suddenly Thomas is dying, and Harry’s solution is to entomb how at Demonreach? That’s gimmicky. And a serious contingency of nemesis’ plan is for Thomas to end up entombed there. That just doesn’t track.
Exhibit C) Harry’s conjuritis or whatever it’s called. What point did this serve? It’s a weird tonal shift. And it’s extremely odd Harry’s never heard of it. And it doesn’t seem to tax Harry. If he can be dropping 1000 pound anvils on blampires, why doesn’t he do that instead of inneffectively yelling “forzare”

[Mira]

   And apparently Alfred can't handle an Outsider? 

[Thana†os]

well...

A - Justine was pregnant...a pregnant lover can make people do incredibly dumb things.  Basically he was being blackmailed, "I'll kill this body and unborn child unless you perform an assassination. If you do, I will let them both go." - I've seen movies with that plot, basically.

B - I thought they had established there were certain circumstances where a vampire could essentially be unable to heal themselves and die from wounds and so, a stasis pod isn't out of line thinking. They do that with people, put them on the blood bypasses while they try to look for answers to save them. Still, I do agree with you some here, gimmicky and ultimately par of the plan for Nemfected Justine to get not he island.

C- It was definitely a plot device and poorly placed and used. I'm in total agreement with you there. 100%.

Alfred - It could be he might have trouble fighting an Outsider that was INVITED onto the island, even if that guest right was revoked before Harry got incapacitated somehow.  Think The Trojan Horse. Can't breach the walls? sneak inside and open the gates.

Not his worst book, but definitely not his best either. The split hurt the book a bit, it feels like chunks of some stuff were missing, especially at the end. It felt a bit rushed, so I wonder where it will pick up at the next book.

(I'm looking at you Butcher - for not mentioning Mister at all in the aftermath)

I'm unhappy about Murphy...I think he was just starting to write her well again only to take her out. I knew it had to happen of course, because of her mortality and wounds mostly sidelining her. Some people aren't the type to go quietly. I actually saw how it was going to be Rudolph doing it when he was put in the book and so freaked out (because - seen that plenty of times in movies and other books). But it was still a bit of a shock when it actually happened (and I had guessed, right after her heroic bit, that was going to be doomsday for her).

I feel sorry for Laura...you'd think after knowing Susan and Murphy going down, she'd want to stay FAR, FAR away from him as a wife/lover/whatever. I always liked Laura, I hope she doesn't get killed off too lol

Still, overall I thought it was done decently well. I'm sure Jim is feeling the burn out and same thing ole GRR Martin is - his plots and threads have gotten so convoluted that it makes writing them a big headache and puts a damper on the whole thing. I suspect we'll get another Aeronaut book next and may that will help him.

[morriswalters]

The whole sneeze an anvil thing is prep work and continuation of something started in Skin Games. Harry's going to use it at some point to shape shift.  Gray uses calls matter from the Never Never when he changes mass and Eb shows Harry that it is possible to stabilize it by adding power

As to the rest we agree.

[Mira]

A - Justine was pregnant...a pregnant lover can make people do incredibly dumb things.  Basically he was being blackmailed, "I'll kill this body and unborn child unless you perform an assassination. If you do, I will let them both go." - I've seen movies with that plot, basically.

I buy the blackmail thing, but at time, how would that help Justine and the baby?  Only thing if somehow Thomas was convinced if the did this, the baby would be free of the Hunger or Justine would be protected from it.

B - I thought they had established there were certain circumstances where a vampire could essentially be unable to heal themselves and die from wounds and so, a stasis pod isn't out of line thinking. They do that with people, put them on the blood bypasses while they try to look for answers to save them. Still, I do agree with you some here, gimmicky and ultimately par of the plan for Nemfected Justine to get not he island.

I think it is pretty well established that to heal a WCvamp needs to feed if they are injured bad enough.  Then the feeding is to the death, that was what Raith was after when he put Justine in bed with Thomas in Blood Rites when he was so badly hurt.  That is what Shaggy did do him over and over again in Turn Coat, beat him up to the point of death, then feed him a young girl.

Alfred - It could be he might have trouble fighting an Outsider that was INVITED onto the island, even if that guest right was revoked before Harry got incapacitated somehow.  Think The Trojan Horse. Can't breach the walls? sneak inside and open the gates.

But at the same time Alfred would have seen though Justine immediately, he had no trouble identifying what Thomas was or Lara.   So while I think Trojan Horse is what Nemesis was going for, Harry figured it out before they got to the island.  Still unanswered, can or cannot the island hold an Outsider?  It can apparently hold everything else, but not an Outsider?  Or is Harry so scared of them that he just didn't want to risk it?  For that matter, if it couldn't get past the defenses unless it tricked Harry and Alfred, then wouldn't a cell hold it?

I'm unhappy about Murphy...I think he was just starting to write her well again only to take her out. I knew it had to happen of course, because of her mortality and wounds mostly sidelining her. Some people aren't the type to go quietly. I actually saw how it was going to be Rudolph doing it when he was put in the book and so freaked out (because - seen that plenty of times in movies and other books). But it was still a bit of a shock when it actually happened (and I had guessed, right after her heroic bit, that was going to be doomsday for her).

I still think it comes down to Jim not having a decent role for Murphy once he kicked her off the police force. 

I feel sorry for Laura...you'd think after knowing Susan and Murphy going down, she'd want to stay FAR, FAR away from him as a wife/lover/whatever. I always liked Laura, I hope she doesn't get killed off too lol

It is something that came totally out of left field as far as I am concerned.  I cannot see how it is going to work, I mean I cannot see Harry allowing Lara to feed off of him during sex no matter how pleasurable..  And I cannot see Lara not feeding off of him, nor can she touch him as long as he has no other sexual partners because he is still protected by his and Murphy's true love. 

[Thana†os]

I buy the blackmail thing, but at time, how would that help Justine and the baby?  Only thing if somehow Thomas was convinced if the did this, the baby would be free of the Hunger or Justine would be protected from it.

It's a magical world and agreements can be binding in ways more than any legal contract. But usually the, "I'll let them live and leave you all alone" could be enough if it was truly binding. Though I am surprised Thomas never even ATTEMPTED to talk to Harry about it.

I think it is pretty well established that to heal a WCvamp needs to feed if they are injured bad enough.  Then the feeding is to the death, that was what Raith was after when he put Justine in bed with Thomas in Blood Rites when he was so badly hurt.  That is what Shaggy did do him over and over again in Turn Coat, beat him up to the point of death, then feed him a young girl.

Yeah, that may be what the issue was...how would Thomas feel if he fed and killed someone. Still, a bit of a railroad with that in order to get Harry alone with Justine and "on the island" basically.

But at the same time Alfred would have seen though Justine immediately, he had no trouble identifying what Thomas was or Lara.   So while I think Trojan Horse is what Nemesis was going for, Harry figured it out before they got to the island.  Still unanswered, can or cannot the island hold an Outsider?  It can apparently hold everything else, but not an Outsider?  Or is Harry so scared of them that he just didn't want to risk it?  For that matter, if it couldn't get past the defenses unless it tricked Harry and Alfred, then wouldn't a cell hold it?

Yeah, but just because Alfred saw through it doesn't mean or change the fact Harry invited it....it's not like Harry hasn't invited others to the island...vampires, knights, etc. Alfred might expect Harry to have unusual guests at this point lol

I suspect it could hold an Outsider. If it can handle gods and titans and things even more powerful, it could likely hold the Outsider. But it was obvious that Nemesis wanted on the island and so, as unprepared as Harry was, he didn't want it there. Who knows what tricks it has? To jail something Alfred has to catch it and what if he couldn't before it managed to do some kind of big damage or sabotage something important? Alfred isn't all powerful and jailing something isn't always quick, easy and cut and dry. As exhausted, wounded, beaten down and on empty as Harry was, I think he chose to confront the problem another day. But lots of unanswered questions with regards to it.

I still think it comes down to Jim not having a decent role for Murphy once he kicked her off the police force.

Maybe. Though Murphy was getting further and further out of her weight class as the books went along and power levels increased. Also, I remember something Butcher was saying about Susan too - where you can't keep a hero hooked up and happy/content in noir settings (though this has kind of moved on from being noir and is now more like urban high fantasy). Though I'm not sure any marriage to Laura could ever really be 'happy/content'. Maybe more like the movie "Mr & Mrs. Smith"

It is something that came totally out of left field as far as I am concerned.  I cannot see how it is going to work, I mean I cannot see Harry allowing Lara to feed off of him during sex no matter how pleasurable..  And I cannot see Lara not feeding off of him, nor can she touch him as long as he has no other sexual partners because he is still protected by his and Murphy's true love.

On some further thought, I think Molly knew about it beforehand. We weren't clued in though.  And see my Mr. & Mrs. Smith comment above lol. I'm right there with you. Makes me wonder why Laura wanted to 'court' Dresden in the first place, knowing his love for Murphy. The marriage thing was all Mab though. I suspect the whole 'we need to be united and have staunch allies' is not the whole truth, but who knows for sure?

Maybe it is, one thing not touched on - consider the losses the Winter Court took, as well as the White Court too. They seemed to take the brunt of things. Everyone is going to be licking their wounds and suffer a loss of manpower.  You know whose not? Nemesis and the being throwing themselves against the Outer Gates.

[gawime]

Back again.

Exhibit B -again) If Thomas needed to feed in order to heal, why wasn’t Lara giving Thomas humans to feed on? They had an Thomas dying for at least an hour, and instead of doing the obvious Lara accompanies Harry to Demonreach. If it was so serious, why would Lara be so passive when the obvious solution to heal Thomas was available. We’re entering territory where both Thomas and Lara are acting out of character.

Exhibit D) Alfred and outsiders. It seems odd that Harry wouldn’t be able to keep Justine out if Demonreach once he realized the plan. Alfred has shown  himself capable of as much in the past. And there’s the possibility of Alfred potentially capturing Justine, which Harry doesn’t even think about. That whole plot sequence is badly thought through

[Mira]

Exhibit B -again) If Thomas needed to feed in order to heal, why wasn’t Lara giving Thomas humans to feed on? They had an Thomas dying for at least an hour, and instead of doing the obvious Lara accompanies Harry to Demonreach. If it was so serious, why would Lara be so passive when the obvious solution to h

I was wondering the same thing at the time, Lara was never shy about feeding on "kine" before, especially if it were to save herself or Thomas.  Or was afraid that Harry would stop helping her?

Exhibit D) Alfred and outsiders. It seems odd that Harry wouldn’t be able to keep Justine out if Demonreach once he realized the plan. Alfred has shown  himself capable of as much in the past. And there’s the possibility of Alfred potentially capturing Justine, which Harry doesn’t even think about. That whole plot sequence is badly thought through

The idea that Harry was so tired and hurt he knew he couldn't think straight enough to be successful works about as well as anything.  But following him after he went overboard, supposedly Alfred helped him ashore, and supposedly Harry gave him the Eye to keep safe in the armory or somewhere, Harry didn't want to know.  Yet Harry was found suffering from severe hypothermia half in the water, by two of Lara's men allowed on the island to help Harry.  None of that makes a whole lot of sense to me.

Maybe. Though Murphy was getting further and further out of her weight class as the books went along and power levels increased. Also, I remember something Butcher was saying about Susan too - where you can't keep a hero hooked up and happy/content in noir settings (though this has kind of moved on from being noir and is now more like urban high fantasy). Though I'm not sure any marriage to Laura could ever really be 'happy/content'. Maybe more like the movie "Mr & Mrs. Smith"

If Murphy had remained on the police force, she could eventually been promoted to police chief or something of that nature.  Even as a detective, she could still assist Harry, keep her skills and still remain believable as a character.

[BrainFireBob]

Harry didn't have the oomph to perform a binding on a Titan and a Walker on the same day.

Harry only looked like he had hypothermia, he comments their attempts to treat him were annoying.

[Thana†os]

I was wondering the same thing at the time, Lara was never shy about feeding on "kine" before, especially if it were to save herself or Thomas.  Or was afraid that Harry would stop helping her?

I think that last bit is probably the most on point. Lara knows harry well enough to know what he isn't going to allow if she wants his help.

The idea that Harry was so tired and hurt he knew he couldn't think straight enough to be successful works about as well as anything.  But following him after he went overboard, supposedly Alfred helped him ashore, and supposedly Harry gave him the Eye to keep safe in the armory or somewhere, Harry didn't want to know.  Yet Harry was found suffering from severe hypothermia half in the water, by two of Lara's men allowed on the island to help Harry.  None of that makes a whole lot of sense to me.

We must always remember, Harry is an unreliable narrator. We are obviously not getting the whole story.

And the entire ending after the battle was pretty rushed, I bet material was cut out of it. I find some missing chunks of information here and there where stuff obviously happened off-screen and we only see bits of it.

he might have needed to make it a mini-trilogy lol

If Murphy had remained on the police force, she could eventually been promoted to police chief or something of that nature.  Even as a detective, she could still assist Harry, keep her skills and still remain believable as a character.

I agree, though when I look back over her department tenure, it doesn't seem like she was really on the track to become a PC of a big department. That's very political and she was not super political. She could have remained a detective, but I think that for the most part, we've outgrown that bit of the story where that's really exceptionally useful. Harry isn't really a PI doing PI stuff with a supernatural twist anymore. He's dealing with gods, titans and legendary beings.

[Mira]

I agree, though when I look back over her department tenure, it doesn't seem like she was really on the track to become a PC of a big department. That's very political and she was not super political. She could have remained a detective, but I think that for the most part, we've outgrown that bit of the story where that's really exceptionally useful. Harry isn't really a PI doing PI stuff with a supernatural twist anymore. He's dealing with gods, titans and legendary beings.

I think that about sums it up.  Harry outgrew being a P.I. though for my part I miss that, it is what set the Dresden Files apart from your run of the mill fantasy.  Jim said no power ups for Murphy, at the beginning of the series I believe it says she is about five years older than Harry.  So over time her physical talents were going to diminish once she hit forty-five, which she was about when she died.  So had she lived her going out and kicking supernatural ass would became less and less plausible.  Even the explanation in Battle Ground wasn't believable, she said that those on Mab's side didn't feel pain so she could ride a motorcycle and fight, but she didn't say her injuries were healed by Mab. There was more going on than simple pain that limited her movements etc.  But back to being Harry's lover, that is sort of a come down for her as well in after a while it becomes boring. 

[Arjan]

I think that about sums it up.  Harry outgrew being a P.I. though for my part I miss that, it is what set the Dresden Files apart from your run of the mill fantasy.  Jim said no power ups for Murphy, at the beginning of the series I believe it says she is about five years older than Harry.  So over time her physical talents were going to diminish once she hit forty-five, which she was about when she died.  So had she lived her going out and kicking supernatural ass would became less and less plausible.  Even the explanation in Battle Ground wasn't believable, she said that those on Mab's side didn't feel pain so she could ride a motorcycle and fight, but she didn't say her injuries were healed by Mab. There was more going on than simple pain that limited her movements etc.  But back to being Harry's lover, that is sort of a come down for her as well in after a while it becomes boring.

It is entirely possible that Mab gave some extra attention to Murphy.

[Thana†os]

I think that about sums it up.  Harry outgrew being a P.I. though for my part I miss that, it is what set the Dresden Files apart from your run of the mill fantasy.  Jim said no power ups for Murphy, at the beginning of the series I believe it says she is about five years older than Harry.  So over time her physical talents were going to diminish once she hit forty-five, which she was about when she died.  So had she lived her going out and kicking supernatural ass would became less and less plausible.  Even the explanation in Battle Ground wasn't believable, she said that those on Mab's side didn't feel pain so she could ride a motorcycle and fight, but she didn't say her injuries were healed by Mab. There was more going on than simple pain that limited her movements etc.  But back to being Harry's lover, that is sort of a come down for her as well in after a while it becomes boring.

I miss that aspect of the novels too (his PI stuff). I guess I missed where Jim said no power up's for Murphy, but that explains why she never got one (to me anyway). Yeah, she was going to dimish over time, so I'm with the Kurgan (Highlander) on that point: "It's better to burn out, than to fade away!".

And yeah, the whole ignoring pain while injured stretches some credibility, especially when you are injured in a way that limits you physically...but then again...MAGIC. Those people would all be paying a price for that though, maybe permanent injuries once they come down from that. Well at least those that lived.

And yeah, just being a love interest and demoted to occasional side character would be doing her a disservice.  At least Lara won't have a problem keeping up, until Harry becomes an Immortal Star Lord or whatever.

[Arjan]

A little more mystery and less battle? 

[Thana†os]

I just miss some of the street level stuff he did.

Books have grown beyond that and that's okay too. I enjoyed the big battle.

now wait, are we talking less battle or les battles?

Because...you know...(just kidding)