Barbara Books Q&A

[vultur]

Bindings are difficult and the beings aren't trustworthy.

I'm not talking about binding anything. Just the inherent power of oaths with supernatural beings.

Kemmler to imprisoned old god: "If you swear to destroy the White Council as soon as you can, and not to harm me, I will release you."

That's all it would take.

Anything he released to annihilate the council- could he confine it himself?

Perhaps, but why would he bother? Total chaos would work in his favor.

"I incited thermonuclear war/the plague to end all plagues. Trust me, Council's gone. Good luck with the fallout."

That's actually probably a win for Kemmler. Really good conditions for a Darkhallow. Once he's a god, does he care about what happens to humanity?

Even if he couldn't Darkhallow immediately, the more chaos, the more surviving people would flock to an unifying force, which Kemmler could be. Civilization started with a tiny population compared to the modern era (or even the late 18th century where Kemmler got started); he could build a new civilization, which could hardly hurt his efforts to become a deity.

[BrainFireBob]

Those are bindings.

It's a total monkey's paw/letter of request situation.

"I want you to eliminate the White Council problem."

*kills Kemmler*

He doesn't want to release a rival. Even becoming a god- since he already had immortality- is a means, not an ends. We don't know what his endgame was.

[vultur]

Those are bindings.

A "binding" oath (eg Harry and Lea in the early books) is not at all the same thing as a wizard "binding" an entity (Harry's attempt to bind the Erlking in DB, Ethniu in BG).

It's a total monkey's paw/letter of request situation.

Not if Kemmler has half a brain. There's no reason why he can't pick an entity which would have no objection to destroying the White Council - there must be plenty like that in Demonreach. It could easily be a mutually beneficial alliance.

And Kemmler wouldn't have survived as long as he did if he was dumb enough to phrase these sorts of bargains *that* exploitably.

(This is something that actually kind of bugs me. As DV Fae and other supernaturals are bound to their natures, bargaining with them ought to be basically zero-risk for someone who understands their natures. It shouldn't be dangerous for anyone except uninformed people like Harry when he dealt with Lea; actual White Council Wizards should have no trouble.)

[BrainFireBob]

Yeah, you don't have a lot of experience with that kind of literalist, I think. My brother makes a point of it.

There's massive amounts of folklore that sums up as "it's not easy."

Also, the idea that there's an entity that would be friendly to Kemmler but anti Council and totally willing to be helpful- is highly speculative on your part. The helpful ones- and the ones that will agree to such bargains- aren't the ones locked up.

EDIT: Kemmler would do such work himself, the only way to ensure it was done as he would have it done. If he lacked power, he'd go get more power.

Second edit: So as not to go back and forth on this, define:

Destroy
White Council
Freedom
Etc.

See, that's the problem. "Destroy the white council" "Copy- YOU! RENAME YOUR COUNCIL THE FUSCIA COUNCIL!"
Or "Well, you never said *when*"
Or extinction level events
Or disbanding the council but leaving its members alone
Or including Kemmler in the Council
Or equating it to their headquarters

There's near-infinite wiggle room in even the most straightforward request because of definition flexibility.

[vultur]

There's massive amounts of folklore that sums up as "it's not easy."

Oh, absolutely. I'm just not sure how well that concept works with the Dresdenverse concept of supernatural beings being bound to their natures (as opposed to mortal free will).

That fact allows a far more complete certainty of how a being will act given certain conditions (eg specific terms of an oath) than is possible with humans.

Also, the idea that there's an entity that would be friendly to Kemmler but anti Council and totally willing to be helpful- is highly speculative on your part.

Not necessarily "friendly" but "capable of recognizing a mutually-beneficial alliance". If the Council were gone, Kemmler would have huge latitude to set up his own organization and feed worship, sacrifices, or whatever else these beings get from cults to any of his allies.

Really, why wouldn't almost any dark entity be OK with that?

[BrainFireBob]

Whereas if he powers up to do it himself he doesn't have any powerful loose cannon rivals to worry about.

Context matters.

The Fae can't say "White is black" in general. I assume they can, when discussing music, say "White is black," because Barry White is black.

The limits on the concept are fascinating.

Fae: "Ask me my favorite fruit, this is a command."
Fae servant: "What is your favorite fruit?"
Fae: "In due time."

Fae enemy: "What is the password?"
Fae*makes eye contact with servant* "It is banana"

[vultur]

There's near-infinite wiggle room in even the most straightforward request because of definition flexibility.

Well, I wasn't writing it out the way I would expect Kemmler to actually word it, because a) that would be tedious, and b) the exact way to word it correctly would be dependent on the specific circumstances and likely the Nature of the specific being chosen.

But it would be something more like requiring that being to "kill [insert names of Senior Council members, senior Wardens, Blackstaff, etc. at that time], in such a way that no Einherjar, shades, ghosts, or other remnants deriving from them remain able to impede my actions; destroy the wards protecting the Hidden Halls of Edinburgh and kill all who are within them at the time you do so; complete these tasks as soon as is possible by using your utmost abilities; and do not harm, confine, or imprison me, in any way, mentally, physically, or spiritually, or act to limit or impede my actions."

There's probably some wiggle room left in this, but I'd expect Kemmler to spend serious time on this, not just 5 minutes, and use specific knowledge of the being/situation. And with Kemmler's knowledge, probably do it in Latin, which is likely less friendly to grammatical ambiguity.

[BrainFireBob]

Fails the thermonuclear war/comet hits Edinborough/deadly plague that only affects wizards criteria.

Kemmler's in no way restricted by these things. Unless he doesn't want to die. Then he might restrict himself.

EDIT: I covered Latin in college. There's plenty of room for ambiguity.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Or “you are White Council”, BLAM!

[vultur]

Or “you are White Council”, BLAM!

Thus naming specific people rather than saying "the White Council", and also including "do not harm me in any way".

Fails the thermonuclear war/comet hits Edinborough/deadly plague that only affects wizards criteria.

I think my "do not harm me in any way" criterion would exclude doing those things in a way that Kemmler would be directly killed by it (in the fireball of the nukes/comet for example). Secondary effects, maybe, but I don't think those would be a real threat to someone like Kemmler once they were aware of them.

So probably actually an entirely acceptable outcome for Kemmler.

Fae: "Ask me my favorite fruit, this is a command."
Fae servant: "What is your favorite fruit?"
Fae: "In due time."

Fae enemy: "What is the password?"
Fae*makes eye contact with servant* "It is banana"

Right, but this sort of trick only works against people who either aren't aware of how it works or don't really think it through. Which anyone on the White Council ought to be capable of; it really should be fairly basic magical education.

Any statement like that which relies on an assumed antecedent of a pronoun just can't be trusted. Now if the Fae said, "the password to [this specific thing] is banana", that would be reliable (I think the present tense 'is' means you wouldn't even have to specify 'at this time' or 'the current password').

[Snark Knight]

1. The Brit (if he has Free Will - implied he might) can't be held by Demonreach forever as Demoreach cannot hold any being with Free Will indefinitely. Including Thomas

I haven't finished BG yet, but if his free-willed choice is that he needs to be where he is, and he doesn't want out, "not indefinite" can still be "pretty long", no?

[TheCuriousFan]

Yeah the Kemmler thing really surprises me. If the Warden can release the prisoners (as Alfred/Demonreach told Harry) why didn't he release some Ethniu-level power on the condition that it swore a magically-binding oath to destroy the White Council?

Maybe something to do with the 'starborn cycle' made Ethniu more freely able to act in the mortal world than would have been possible a century ago?

Still, even a half-dozen naagloshii assassins could have seriously messed up the White Council's war efforts, likely enough for Kemmler to win.

I thought it was what Corpsetaker tried to do in GS, except that Kemmler succeeded where she failed.

He definitely did do some kind of "low-level Darkhallow" however, since Mab says that eating spirits was the secret of the power that let him defy the Council. It's not just something he knew how to do but never got a chance to use - he actually gained power from it.

I mean, Jim mentioned that the fighting was focused on preventing him from returning to the island at all after he went bad so I think it's a safe assumption that he didn't have access to Demonreach after he went full necromancer.

[vultur]

I mean, Jim mentioned that the fighting was focused on preventing him from returning to the island at all after he went bad so I think it's a safe assumption that he didn't have access to Demonreach after he went full necromancer.

Sure. It just seems like Kemmler was a long-term planner, not just a destructive thug (Bob mentions 150 years of planning going into WW1) and it seems like using Demonreach to destroy the Council should have been his first move, IE before the Council knew he was a warlock.

Now maybe something went wrong and he was revealed early... but it seems like he was an active villain for something like 150-200 years. Was the Council really able to keep him off the island that long? How could you even do that, given that Kemmler had various supernatural allies and could travel through the NN?

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Jim in the Q& A goes heavily into teleportation, that Harry should be capable of it. We saw Drakul and Namshiel teleport and Harry had tried to check out a book on it by the White Council (presumably Bob didn’t have the info) but Bonea should have it) are we I wonder  going to see Harry learning to teleport? Mab and Molly obviously teleport. Of course it takes energy so he isn’t going to do it for everyday, but teleporting between the Castle and Demonreach would be useful, and may be at the upper limit of what he can manage. The Water Beetle has now been sunk.

He has got his lab back, so the first thing he may build is a teleport focus, to stop him arriving as an undifferentiated pile of protoplasm. Maybe something like a compass but working in three dimension ? It would give him an edge next time he takes on Eb.

And of course we know the focus word he will use “Bamf!”