Author Topic: !!SPOILERS!! Battle Ground Thoughts and Recap !!SPOILERS!! READER BEWARE  (Read 15471 times)

Offline Yuillegan

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First off, probably my favourite book to date. Definitely feels like it could have just been combined with Peace Talks and reads very well together (as I spent the day before re-reading Peace Talks). Some issues in the book but overall extremely pleased.  There is more big reveals than any book yet, but probably more ground work and set-ups for the future than previous books. Harry is in deeper water than ever.

1. Starborn. Lots of reveals. We meet several of them - which is a big hint that lots of the major teams have one. Clearly they also have multiple uses. Some of which are so terrible that even knowing them causes issues.

a)   Listen is one (and he disappears but isn't dead after all is said and done), it explains his importance to the Empress although she does seem more nonchalant than the others about Starborn. Drakul (more on him later) is also one. And we learn from Mavra that he seems to want to sacrifice Starborn to or for the "Stars and the Stones". Harry also finally pays attention and actually asks more questions about the big stuff.

b) As it seems likely there are multiple Starborn running around there are a number of possible candidates:
Elaine (almost certain now considering Justin's involvement...more so if she were Kumori), Marcone (seems like another reveal), Nicodemus (would explain a lot of his game), Rashid (for obvious reasons). Perhaps others. Part of me thinks all these beings have the potential to be something else and it's about Choice. Drakul certainly hints that the White Council intended for Harry to be a weapon for them (perhaps a sacrifice too). Interestingly, I would say that humour and insouciance are traits that all known Starborn seem to share (Drakul, Harry and Listen). Maybe that's a clue.

2. Gods. Angels. Cosmology. HOOO BOY. Jim gave away A LOT of information. So I have to break it down.

a) Angels (even the regular ones) seem to outrank most Gods now. But the implication is that may not always have been the case. However, it is also implied the cost of their might is their own Free Will. And if you read some of the interactions carefully in the series (like with the Angel of Death) they are not all entirely happy with that perhaps. I'd say another War is brewing. But that's just a theory.

b) Ethniu calls an Angel (I think implied to be Gabriel or Uriel) a traitor, lapdog, and coward. It implies an almost personal knowledge of the speaker (who was speaking through Butters). The word traitor is, to me, VERY significant. Jim recently revealed in an interview a few things about "Before" Creation. One of which was that all the Gods were there but don't all remember it quite the same as cause and effect were not yet invented (or something to that effect). My theory is that the Speaker (Uriel or whoever) wasn't always an Angel. In fact, I'd go so far to say that the Gods and Angels by and large were all the same spirits or whatever. Some even might be offshoots of larger beings. But that beings like the Speaker (Uriel or Gabriel) chose TWG. Perhaps TWG wasn't all powerful in a sea of chaos surrounded by other all powerful beings. Perhaps it didn't mean much until TWG chose to make Creation. And I would hazard a guess that beings like the Speaker (assuming they weren't created by TWG) chose to become His servants. I believe that Ethniu and her kind were allowed to be a part of Creation if they contributed to it. But along the way they believed they should rule it. And so have been eliminated or reduced or banished or imprisoned.

b) Beings. Vadderung says to Harry "that being you call Mister Sunshine". Gard says to Harry "the being who you have dealt with is...only a facet of the being whose symbol [valknut] that is. His guises are created to diminish him into something the mortal mind can accept. But though he may not have the strength he once did, that being is an elemental one". So instead of terms like "god" or "angel" or "demon" we get "being". I think this is important. I think Jim is revealing to Harry (and us readers) what he has hinted at in the past. Namely, that all these varying beings are just one way of looking at them and understanding them. The whole three blind men and an elephant analogy. We as humans see them as separate and so they come to mortals in ways they can process (perhaps informed by that belief about them) but ultimately that isn't the true being. Just the face it currently wears. I think this supports my earlier point that once upon a time all these beings were together and it's only now they are in different teams. Which leads me to my next point.

3. Vadderung. I'd say there is a reasonable hint he is or was also Zeus (his Spear unleashed was literally a lightning bolt). But the phrase Gard says also seems to hint that he might well have been much more. Perhaps many things.

4. Titanic Bronze. Whilst it was impressive at times, it literally was also belief armour. If you don't think you can be hurt then you can't. Moment that changes... Curious too that there is a substance called "Olympian Bronze" which is part of what it's made of (I think Jim may have borrowed a page from Rick Riordan). It also was infused with mordite. Interestingly, even the Swords had trouble damaging her in any serious capacity. Had Ethniu been more capable, or say someone like Marcone had her gifts, I think the fight would have gone very differently.

5. The Eye. Was mostly very impressive although hardly a nuke. More like the energy of a nuke focussed. Arguably far more dangerous but it would have been nice to see an OMG moment. Everyone likes a big boom. Also, Harry lying about who ended up with it and using it to manipulate Marcone was stupid on Harry's part. He won the round but he will pay for it. If he had been prepared to try and buy the castle off Marcone he might have dodged the eventual repercussions. But it can kill Immortals apparently. Mab was concerned it could finish her. So now we have two ways Immortals can kill: conjunctions and super-magical power. Which makes a certain amount of sense.

6. Reality breaking. Lifted pretty much from Warhammer I think. More magic equals less reality. Too much equals catastrophic reality failure. Also, Ferrovax went from closing the Earth to holding reality together from the Nevernever. It seems like Jim forgot what he was doing and put him in a new position. It still gels and was cool but the Archive ended up with the Svartalves. I suspect in an older copy Ferrovax was with them but later Jim had to change things and ended up with Ivy. But Bob mentioned that if there was too much strain Reality might collapse.

7. Speaking of inconsistencies. Mab at the end of PT says she has to go to the Outer Gates as they under intense attack. And then...she doesn't. Leah clearly holds the fort. But tbh I would have thought logical Mab would defend REALITY first and then Chicago. But that's just me.

8. Marcone. His new power-up suits him fine. I wondered if he would ever go that far. I daresay he won't stop though. And it gives him a way to take on Harry directly. I don't think Harry is going to find him as easy to threaten in future. But in taking up that power he now is working against that Celestial Power. He might find that the Knights of the Cross are a bit scary. He seems like he is going the Nicodemus route but I don't see them working together. Too much bad blood. I think he will attempt to control the Knights of the Blackened Denarius. I think Nic will devolve into a much more crazy villain.

9. Mab. Pretty damn badass. Took a direct hit off the Eye and lived (barely). Killed thousands of the enemy on her own. However, not invincible. Ethniu clearly would have killed her eventually. She was very much fighting out of her weight class. For perspective, Ethniu took on the Erlking, Vadderung and Titania (at her peak power) and trashed them. It cost her energy but she wasn't worried. So for those who thought Mab wasn't trying or Mab was mmore powerful than Ethniu etc. She wasn't. But she wasn't meant to be either. Mab's real virtue is her will. She wouldn't bow to Ethniu. She fought Hate with Logic (how she resisted the Eye). She outfoxed her enemy. Brawn was never going to win her the match. Interesting that her Unicorn (which Harry compared to a Wizard's foci) was immortal too. I didn't think there were that many running around. Makes me think that it is a part of her, like Odin's Ravens. She also said we and us a lot at the end. More evidence that the Queens are not as separate as they appear. And she resolved some differences with Titania...

10. Titania. Finally showed up for another cameo. Was still quite awesome despite getting trashed by Ethniu. Had a cryptic line about what the arrival of Ethniu meant, and that she always did her duty. Clearly an old wound. I suspect it means killing Mab when Mab goes off the deep end. But that's just a WAG. I also suspect that this whole battle was a sign of the end game coming to a close, whatever it is.

11. Drakul. Very badass, but if so slightly underwhelming. I was expecting a Ferrovax-level monster and got an uber-vampire dark wizard. I mean, he hardly seemed bothered by anything they threw at him and LtW seemed to take heart they survived at all. He also killed Chandler (it seems) almost negligently. It is possible he sent Chandler to his lair to become his servant. He was more powerful than all the LoON and I think it's a further hint he was the sire of all Vampires...in a way. He also seemed hardly concerned by the skirmish at all and his true prize was chaos and more wizards. The fact he is starborn suggests he was mortal or is mortal. Perhaps whatever the being that was trapped in his mortal shell is limited by the meat suit. Perhaps you need to be a starborn to be possessed by such beings. I don't seem him sacrificing himself on the Stars and Stones (whatever they are). Clearly his heir (Dracula) was a disappointment. But he also possessed a sense of humour calling the White Council (or Senior Council) "their immaculate beardlinesses". He possesses Namshiel's trick of instant teleport. Which along with several other hints suggests an infernal connection. He might not be Lucifer but I am sure there is a connection. And I don't doubt he is Cowl's boss. He also has all the standard Black Council powers yet perhaps not the weaknesses. He wasn't a corpse either. Beyond that, he also has the Word of Kemmler (surely passed on by Mavra). And what seems to remain of the old Elders of the Black Court seemed to be there (although hardly the Mab destroying group they once were).

11Librarians. The Men in Black. Lara classes them as extremely dangerous and even Vadderung seems concerned. Which, to me, is very disappointing. I really hope Jim doesn't pull out a bunch of uber-powerful Watchers or Men of Letters or Masons etc. Knowledge is power, sure. But I very much dislike the fantasy trope where a secret society with a library seem to have every book every, especially on the threat they need to face. "Here is our book on Wizard hunting, on God binding etc". They always seem to have the exact tome they need. Which as any historian will tell you (or even your own common sense) is very unlikely. It's hard enough searching through the mountains of information we already have to find anything worthwhile. But beyond that, things get destroyed over time. It's that simple. Knowledge of the ancient world is scarce. Record keeping wasn't all that thorough, was full of bias by those who recorded things (often from people who recorded history via stories that were already embellished and passed down through oral tradition) and often anything to heretical got destroyed, not to mention all the changes in rulership and various disasters that occurred. It's a wonder we have anything. And I really hope they don't have all this special anti-magic tech. It just gets more and more ridiculous from there. I for one will be very disappointed if they go around wiping the floor with everyone.

12 Also, was disappointed the masquerade didn't fully drop. Seems like Jim couldn't pick how much he wanted it to drop so tried to do it without doing it. He wants Harry to have some of his old life (house, pets, city, job etc) but also continue the whole 'world has changed' thing. If 60,000 people died in a terror event in the US (and consider only 3000 died initially in 9/11 and only a few buildings were destroyed), the ENTIRE COUNTRY would go berserk. It would not be business as usual. It would be martial law. The US quite probably would declare war on SOMEBODY. People would want answers. Not to mention, how will they keep it quiet? Thousands would have witnessed the supernatural. I suspect word-of-mouth would be more convincing than any footage (especially these days). If Jim wanted BAU, I think a hurricane or some other natural disaster would have been the way to go. Just my thoughts. I kinda just wanted Jim to rip of the band-aid and have a brave new world. Probably more x-men than Harry Potter I would think but still.

13 Seems like the Placard was a lot of build-up for very little bang. Even the Athame/Spear of Destiny (that's canon now) wasn't all that impressive. I suspect Harry hasn't yet realised how to use them but still. Was a bit...underwhelming.

14Deaths and Injuries. Murphy, well the writing was on the wall. A hero's death. But it was tragic. And Jim found a convenient way for Harry not to be able to see her again (at least in this life). Not only that, but he found an interesting job for her (lots of foreshadowing). Although, Murphy was Catholic. Maybe she wants to go to the other heaven? I wonder how that all works. I do hope she got to have a chat to her father at least. Thought Eb was done for, seems like he survived. I guess Jim didn't want to give Harry to many weapons yet. I guess he is saving up the Blackstaff. Hendricks, that was an odd one. But I guess Marcone really doesn't need him now. Rudy should of died but I guess he is just a pain forever. For some reason, Jim really hates that character. He has zero redeeming qualities. But, he is fun to hate. Sanya, Eb, LtW, and Butters all took big hits. I don't think they will be as strong in future.

15 Monsters. Was very cool and was good to see that the theory confirmed that the Fomor turn humans into monsters. But was odd to only see a few variants. The Hunters, Octokongs, the Fomor Sorcerers, the Servitors (turtlenecks) and the Jotuns. Would have been good to see some more creatures. And strangely, Ethniu and Balor etc are gods but Corb isn't. Not sure how that works. Fire Jotuns were very cool though. And even a Thor reference! Got to see a lot of nasty Fae too. Corb wasn't very threatening in the end which was a shame, Jim made him out to be reasonably bad but then we saw nothing. But I don't think we have seen the last of him either.

16 Cristos...doesn't seem Black Council. Maybe stupid. Maybe a puppet. But doesn't act like an open servant. Also, didn't seem to use the right magic to be Cowl. So one less candidate I think.

17 He Who Walks Beside. Nemesis' confirmed identity. Curiously, why don't the others have nicknames? Why does this Outsider just possess people and not look like the other two? Also, it seemed like Nemesis doesn't infect multiple beings at once. In fact, it seems like it infects just the one being at a time. Which would explain a few things. And now Justine is the host (a nice confirmation that she was off for some time). Although you can bet the baby is bad news and not just a baby White Court Vampire. It seems Lara either a) knew and was working with Justine, or b) didn't know but had her own plans around Justine. Feels like Grey wouldn't have intervened if there was no threat. I suppose it's possible that c) Lara knew but didn't want to tell anyone about Justine and was attempting to deal with it her own way. Also, very clear there are Outsiders in Demonreach considering this is the second time (just like Cold Days) it has used a big distraction just to get on the island. But it was scared of Alfred, so that's something. It also revealed a little about the Outsider's end game (which many have guessed at) - Empty Night. The dissolution of all Creation into silence and nothingness. And Nemesis seemed to think that it's closer than ever despite Harry's victory. Also, so much more pain for Thomas. Guy can't catch a break.

18 Molly. Mab thinks she should be killed in the event of Mab's death (so that's happening in the books at some point). Whether Dresden will go through with it is another matter. But I took Mab's implication that Molly wouldn't do what is needed (i.e. too emotional) to save Reality.

19 Mab is making Harry marry Lara. What Lara gets out of it is unclear other than an alliance (and not a long term one). Jim has been foreshadowing Lara and Harry's eventual boinking since Lara was first introduced. I think it's all part of making Harry darker, just like Harry's mother. We all have wondered how Margaret Le Fay could take up with Lord Raith. But I think we start to see how such things can come about. Was cruel to do it right after Murphy's death. But I think Harry has further darkside to go yet. I mean, Fidelacchius did hurt him. All that stuff about absolute good or evil. Seems to me Harry is going very dark side, if the Sword is any barometer.

20 I also think we have had some confirmation about Lord Raith's protection. Eb describes mordite as being "the most evil stuff from the Outside" (which is curious, considering it's all bad out there...right?) But in that he is also talking about how once it is alloyed into Titanic Bronze it consumes energy instead of life. Seems exactly like Lord Raith's protection. Which isn't to say he was wearing Titanic Bronze of course. More like, beings of the same origin as mordite could provide such protection. Why Eb didn't think of this when he attempted to kill Raith is curious (mostly as Jim likely hadn't invented it yet) but still. 

21 Infernal or Celestial power. Clearly, when it comes to Outsiders or other such big things these are the forces that count. Interesting that Nicodemus and his Knights could potentially have injured the Titan just as the Swords might. Seems like it wasn't like anyone could do much but resist her. Vadderung also seemed extremely wary of using Angels even as part of a defence trap.

22 A lot of references to parallel timelines and alternate futures. The fight between the immortals seems to involve guessing or perhaps even willing certain realities to make themselves present. It wasn't really a fight of energy but of Will. Ethniu forced through the reality where she won that fight. Mab talks of the cost of creating new branches of the universe. Harry seems to see multiple realities around him.

23 Harry is so going to disappear on his wedding day to Lara. Mark my words. Mirror Mirror.

24 Harry is going to fight the White Council soon. Maybe not next book. Maybe not even until the BAT. But that show down is coming.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2020, 12:59:12 AM by Yuillegan »
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Offline Yuillegan

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Re: !!SPOILERS!! Battle Ground Thoughts and Recap !!SPOILERS!! READER BEWARE
« Reply #1 on: September 30, 2020, 01:27:49 AM »
And sorry for the alarmingly long post, I had no idea until I submitted it! Got a bit carried away...
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Offline Conspiracy Theorist

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Re: !!SPOILERS!! Battle Ground Thoughts and Recap !!SPOILERS!! READER BEWARE
« Reply #2 on: September 30, 2020, 03:44:25 AM »
And sorry for the alarmingly long post, I had no idea until I submitted it! Got a bit carried away...

You should have cut it in two and posted the second half 10 weeks later

Offline Yuillegan

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Re: !!SPOILERS!! Battle Ground Thoughts and Recap !!SPOILERS!! READER BEWARE
« Reply #3 on: September 30, 2020, 04:34:50 AM »
You should have cut it in two and posted the second half 10 weeks later
That's actually hilarious. I'll fix it up so it's easier to read anyhow.
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Offline SintraEdrien

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Re: !!SPOILERS!! Battle Ground Thoughts and Recap !!SPOILERS!! READER BEWARE
« Reply #4 on: September 30, 2020, 04:54:21 AM »
Just to note, as soon as I saw the Huntsmen explained, I thought "Chronicles of Prydain!"
Personally, I thought that this book plus Peace Talks together equalled about 1.5 books. It also seems to me that Jim was trying to answer a bunch of questions, leave a bunch of threads for future works, show off new characters as well as cameo some older ones (what happens to Andi/Marci?), and also slip in a few "Take That!"s to some of us readers- in short, I think he was trying too much. Still, a fascinating read, and a nice tie-in to the X-mas short story from so long ago.

Offline Arjan

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Re: !!SPOILERS!! Battle Ground Thoughts and Recap !!SPOILERS!! READER BEWARE
« Reply #5 on: September 30, 2020, 06:11:06 AM »
 Four werewolves survived. They escorted Harry after the battle.
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Offline TheCuriousFan

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Re: !!SPOILERS!! Battle Ground Thoughts and Recap !!SPOILERS!! READER BEWARE
« Reply #6 on: September 30, 2020, 06:37:35 AM »
b) As it seems likely there are multiple Starborn running around there are a number of possible candidates:
Elaine (almost certain now considering Justin's involvement...more so if she were Kumori), Marcone (seems like another reveal), Nicodemus (would explain a lot of his game), Rashid (for obvious reasons). Perhaps others. Part of me thinks all these beings have the potential to be something else and it's about Choice. Drakul certainly hints that the White Council intended for Harry to be a weapon for them (perhaps a sacrifice too). Interestingly, I would say that humour and insouciance are traits that all known Starborn seem to share (Drakul, Harry and Listen). Maybe that's a clue.
Marcone was 40ish in Storm Front, he doesn't fit.

Quote
5. The Eye. Was mostly very impressive although hardly a nuke. More like the energy of a nuke focussed. Arguably far more dangerous but it would have been nice to see an OMG moment. Everyone likes a big boom. Also, Harry lying about who ended up with it and using it to manipulate Marcone was stupid on Harry's part. He won the round but he will pay for it. If he had been prepared to try and buy the castle off Marcone he might have dodged the eventual repercussions. But it can kill Immortals apparently. Mab was concerned it could finish her. So now we have two ways Immortals can kill: conjunctions and super-magical power. Which makes a certain amount of sense.
On the other hand, leaving the castle with Marcone means he's gotta work his way in through the uber wards after Marcone has worked them out in their eventual confrontation.

Quote
I also think we have had some confirmation about Lord Raith's protection. Eb describes mordite as being "the most evil stuff from the Outside" (which is curious, considering it's all bad out there...right?) But in that he is also talking about how once it is alloyed into Titanic Bronze it consumes energy instead of life. Seems exactly like Lord Raith's protection. Which isn't to say he was wearing Titanic Bronze of course. More like, beings of the same origin as mordite could provide such protection. Why Eb didn't think of this when he attempted to kill Raith is curious (mostly as Jim likely hadn't invented it yet) but still.
Don't think to hard about those attempts, judging by the Blood Rites defences Eb could have walked through them in his sleep.

Quote
But I think Harry has further darkside to go yet. I mean, Fidelacchius did hurt him. All that stuff about absolute good or evil. Seems to me Harry is going very dark side, if the Sword is any barometer.
That was when he was completely into going for revenge, it was just uncomfortably warm for him earlier.

Quote
But it was scared of Alfred, so that's something. It also revealed a little about the Outsider's end game (which many have guessed at) - Empty Night. The dissolution of all Creation into silence and nothingness. And Nemesis seemed to think that it's closer than ever despite Harry's victory. Also, so much more pain for Thomas. Guy can't catch a break.
Nemesis, like everybody else, expects a massive war of humans vs everybody else to begin soonish.
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Offline Yuillegan

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Re: !!SPOILERS!! Battle Ground Thoughts and Recap !!SPOILERS!! READER BEWARE
« Reply #7 on: September 30, 2020, 07:27:56 AM »
Marcone was 40ish in Storm Front, he doesn't fit.
Don't hold on too heavily to that idea. Unless you assume all Starborn are born within the same hour or so. Elaine could be starborn. Listen actually IS starborn and I don't think anyone thinks he is exactly the same age as Harry, to the same few hours. Or do we think Drakul also happens to share bdays with Harry? No, I think it's more complicated than that. Eb left out crucial details. Not the least of which he never said which conjunction, just that it happens every 666 years. Maybe that's just one type of starborn. Maybe you can be born under other conjunctions.

Quote
On the other hand, leaving the castle with Marcone means he's gotta work his way in through the uber wards after Marcone has worked them out in their eventual confrontation.
True, but I think Harry has underestimated Marcone. Not to mention that Marcone and Namshiel may well have left traps or backdoors into the castle. Stuff Harry might never find.

Quote
Don't think to hard about those attempts, judging by the Blood Rites defences Eb could have walked through them in his sleep.
Not sure what you mean here...unless you're saying Eb only half-heartedly attempted to avenge his daughter. He said he tried three times and no magic hit him. My guess is that while Eb could have ripped up the White Court establishment outside Chicago, taking out the White Court is a whole other problem. One that might not be suited to brawn. I mean, they're still kicking around and growing in power despite everything else. Also, where do all these Raith sisters keep coming from? They seem to get killed fairly often.

Quote
That was when he was completely into going for revenge, it was just uncomfortably warm for him earlier.
Uncomfortably warm? You're thinking PT. In Battle Ground he actually sticks his arm into it to try and counter Butters and gets a massive burn.

Quote
Nemesis, like everybody else, expects a massive war of humans vs everybody else to begin soonish.
Perhaps, but it's curious what specifically made it so certain. My guess is that it has some form of prescience that allows it to see which moves bring it closer to it's goal. I mean, Ethniu lost. It didn't get to the Island. They didn't breach the Gates (as far as we know). Yet it still thinks it is closer than ever. You could be right, the eventual war between Man and the Supernatural might make things easier. But it sounded more specific than that, at least to me.

Just to note, as soon as I saw the Huntsmen explained, I thought "Chronicles of Prydain!"
Personally, I thought that this book plus Peace Talks together equalled about 1.5 books. It also seems to me that Jim was trying to answer a bunch of questions, leave a bunch of threads for future works, show off new characters as well as cameo some older ones (what happens to Andi/Marci?), and also slip in a few "Take That!"s to some of us readers- in short, I think he was trying too much. Still, a fascinating read, and a nice tie-in to the X-mas short story from so long ago.
Yes, there were a nice few Welsh references and Prydain references. Good to know what happened to Arawn Death-Lord too, clears a few theories. He did more I believe because it became split. I think originally it was actually going to be smaller (combined). The Eb vs Harry fight wasn't meant to happen until later in the series, for example. Overall though, I am pleased with the amount of content.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2020, 03:59:24 AM by Yuillegan »
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Offline Arjan

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Re: !!SPOILERS!! Battle Ground Thoughts and Recap !!SPOILERS!! READER BEWARE
« Reply #8 on: September 30, 2020, 07:57:11 AM »
Don't hold on too heavily to that idea. Unless you assume all Starborn are born within the same hour or so. Elaine could be starborn. Listen actually IS starborn and I don't think anyone thinks he is exactly the same age as Harry, to the same few hours. Or do we think Drakul also happens to share bdays with Harry? No, I think it's more complicated than that. Eb left out crucial details. Not the least of which he never said which conjunction, just that it happens every 666 years. Maybe that's just one type of starborn. Maybe you can be born under other conjunctions.
True, but I think Harry has underestimated Marcone. Not to mention that Marcone and Namshiel may well have left traps or backdoors into the castle. Stuff Harry might never find.
Not sure what you mean here...unless you're saying Eb only half-heartedly attempted to avenge his daughter. He said he tried three times and no magic hit him. My guess is that while Eb could have ripped up the White Court establishment outside Chicago, taking out the White Court is a whole other problem. One that might not be suited to brawn. I mean, they're still kicking around and growing in power despite everything else. Also, where do all these Raith sisters keep coming from? They seem to get killed fairly often.

That was when he was completely into going for revenge, it was just uncomfortably warm for him earlier.
Uncomfortably warm? You're thinking PT. In Battle Ground he actually sticks his arm into it to try and counter Butters and gets a massive burn.
The guiding angel in the sword decides how much damage it does based on the targets spiritual state. That can change depending on the situation.

The burn was just a warning. In the end Harry had to make his choice himself.
Quote
Perhaps, but it's curious what specifically made it so certain. My guess is that it has some form of prescience that allows it to see which moves bring it closer to it's goal. I mean, Ethniu lost. It didn't get to the Island. They didn't breach the Gates (as far as we know). Yet it still thinks it is closer than ever. You could be right, the eventual war between Man and the Supernatural might make things easier. But it sounded more specific than that, at least to me.
In lovecraftian stories beings can return “when the stars are right”. The outsiders are preparing for that moment as is Mab. Nemesis doesn’t mind sacrificing pawns as long as she can get new ones if it weakens winter at that exact moment.
Quote
Yes, there were a nice few Welsh references and Prydain references. Good to know what happened to Arawn Death-Lord too, clears a few theories. He did more I believe because it became split. I think originally it was actually going to be smaller (combined). The Eb vs Harry fight wasn't meant to happen until later in the series, for example. Overall though, I am pleased with the amount of content.
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Offline TheCuriousFan

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Re: !!SPOILERS!! Battle Ground Thoughts and Recap !!SPOILERS!! READER BEWARE
« Reply #9 on: September 30, 2020, 08:25:35 AM »
Don't hold on too heavily to that idea. Unless you assume all Starborn are born within the same hour or so. Elaine could be starborn. Listen actually IS starborn and I don't think anyone thinks he is exactly the same age as Harry, to the same few hours. Or do we think Drakul also happens to share bdays with Harry? No, I think it's more complicated than that. Eb left out crucial details. Not the least of which he never said which conjunction, just that it happens every 666 years. Maybe that's just one type of starborn. Maybe you can be born under other conjunctions.
If there's a time based opening I'm pretty sure it'll be one that's a lot shorter than a decade and a half otherwise there's tens of millions of them.
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Not sure what you mean here...unless you're saying Eb only half-heartedly attempted to avenge his daughter. He said he tried three times and no magic hit him. My guess is that while Eb could have ripped up the White Court establishment outside Chicago, taking out the White Court is a whole other problem. One that might not be suited to brawn. I mean, they're still kicking around and growing in power despite everything else. Also, where do all these Raith sisters keep coming from? They seem to get killed fairly often.
My point was that Eb specialises in the kind of magic that Blood Rites showed gets around the defence without a problem, just don't think too hard about the backstory one liner lest you start poking holes in it.
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That was when he was completely into going for revenge, it was just uncomfortably warm for him earlier.
Uncomfortably warm? You're thinking PT. In Battle Ground he actually sticks his arm into it to try and counter Butters and gets a massive burn.
That's what I meant, Harry in general is safe from the sword most days. Harry in that specific moment in BG was pretty close to going full darkside and so got burnt.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2020, 08:29:58 AM by TheCuriousFan »
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Offline Arjan

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Re: !!SPOILERS!! Battle Ground Thoughts and Recap !!SPOILERS!! READER BEWARE
« Reply #10 on: September 30, 2020, 09:42:13 AM »
If there's a time based opening I'm pretty sure it'll be one that's a lot shorter than a decade and a half otherwise there's tens of millions of them.My point was that Eb specialises in the kind of magic that Blood Rites showed gets around the defence without a problem, just don't think too hard about the backstory one liner lest you start poking holes in it.That's what I meant, Harry in general is safe from the sword most days. Harry in that specific moment in BG was pretty close to going full darkside and so got burnt.
Just like Susan can not touch the sword in one book and can become a knight in another. Harry even explained it in changes when he gives the sword to her.

The angel in the sword makes its own decisions based on its purpose. It did not want to kill Harry, it wanted to save Harry with butters help and a burn did the job.
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Offline ClintACK

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Re: !!SPOILERS!! Battle Ground Thoughts and Recap !!SPOILERS!! READER BEWARE
« Reply #11 on: September 30, 2020, 11:01:54 AM »
I don't think the Sword *burned* Harry at all.

Harry wasn't just set on revenge, in his hate and despair he'd turned over control entirely to the Winter Mantle. The Sword just burned out the Mantle for a moment, leaving Harry to feel all the pain he'd accumulated in the battle -- including a left arm that was charred to the elbow from overuse of the shield bracelet.

Offline Mira

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Re: !!SPOILERS!! Battle Ground Thoughts and Recap !!SPOILERS!! READER BEWARE
« Reply #12 on: September 30, 2020, 12:11:15 PM »
I don't think the Sword *burned* Harry at all.

Harry wasn't just set on revenge, in his hate and despair he'd turned over control entirely to the Winter Mantle. The Sword just burned out the Mantle for a moment, leaving Harry to feel all the pain he'd accumulated in the battle -- including a left arm that was charred to the elbow from overuse of the shield bracelet.

Or a new wrinkle in how the Sword behaves.  It got broken when misused by Murphy, it simply wouldn't let itself be misused by Harry in his anger and grief.  Remember back in Grave Peril when Harry, out of fear tried to kill Lea with Michael's Sword, it fell out of his hand rather than let him misuse it.  Think both Swords were also protecting Harry from a grave sin, murder, that he was about to commit.

What is interesting is the excuse the White Council used to kick Harry out.  That supposedly he used magic to kill a couple of Fomor/humans, most likely Turtlenecks.  But Rudolph is a vanilla human, as upset as Harry was, trying to kill him with a Holy Sword, he didn't try to kill him with magic.

Offline kel0700

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Re: !!SPOILERS!! Battle Ground Thoughts and Recap !!SPOILERS!! READER BEWARE
« Reply #13 on: September 30, 2020, 12:14:38 PM »
Would someone be able to explain to me this new winter Knight ability Harry has, "the banner" , mab said few winter knights had the power to manifest it, is it the ability to enlist and order fae from winter to fight for Harry? Can this ability be used all the time?

Offline knightedbishop

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Re: !!SPOILERS!! Battle Ground Thoughts and Recap !!SPOILERS!! READER BEWARE
« Reply #14 on: September 30, 2020, 12:15:55 PM »
The Sword definitely burned Harry. It also temporarily disable the WK mantle so he get all of his aches and pains. It was a warning- if he was truly evil the Sword would have cut him.

When the mantle kicks back in Harry’s aches and pains subside. Except the pain of the burn the Sword inflicted. Mab noticed the Sword burn and was jealous- mourning her lost humanity, I think.