!!SPOILERS!! Battle Ground Thoughts and Recap !!SPOILERS!! READER BEWARE

[ClintACK]

But Rudolph is a vanilla human, as upset as Harry was, trying to kill him with a Holy Sword, he didn't try to kill him with magic.

Wait, what?

Harry didn't try to pick up the sword -- he tried to reach past it, thinking it couldn't cut him so he could just ignore it. The bad things happened when he hit the sword's blade with his forearm.

And Harry definitely tried to kill Rudolph with magic -- first by crushing him with his shield, then by firing lightning at him.

The Sword definitely burned Harry. It also temporarily disable the WK mantle so he get all of his aches and pains. It was a warning- if he was truly evil the Sword would have cut him.

Huh. You might be right. I'd read that as him suddenly realizing how badly burned his arm was, from overusing the shield bracelet earlier in the battle. But it does read like there's a new wound in addition.

[Arjan]

Or a new wrinkle in how the Sword behaves.  It got broken when misused by Murphy, it simply wouldn't let itself be misused by Harry in his anger and grief.  Remember back in Grave Peril when Harry, out of fear tried to kill Lea with Michael's Sword, it fell out of his hand rather than let him misuse it.  Think both Swords were also protecting Harry from a grave sin, murder, that he was about to commit.

What is interesting is the excuse the White Council used to kick Harry out.  That supposedly he used magic to kill a couple of Fomor/humans, most likely Turtlenecks.  But Rudolph is a vanilla human, as upset as Harry was, trying to kill him with a Holy Sword, he didn't try to kill him with magic.

The white councils definition of human is flexible apparently and it also inconsistent because if Harry really had broken the law they should put him on the death list of dangerous sorcerers and start actively hunting him, and not push him out unless they do not consider him human anymore.

En will explode when he hears about him and Lara

[Mira]

And Harry definitely tried to kill Rudolph with magic -- first by crushing him with his shield, then by firing lightning at him.

Yet, he managed to run away didn't he?  If Harry meant to kill him with magic, he would have been dead.

The white councils definition of human is flexible apparently and it also inconsistent because if Harry really had broken the law they should put him on the death list of dangerous sorcerers and start actively hunting him, and not push him out unless they do not consider him human anymore.

Yeah, it sounds a lot more like the Doom part 2.  Only under the original Doom, Harry could still be a member of the White Council.  If Harry was indeed guilty of breaking the First Law, then instead of handing him his walking papers and telling him to be a good boy and not to act like a wizard anymore, Carlos should have brought a crew to take him down and behead him..  Is Harry seen in the same league as Kemmler now?

[ClintACK]

Yet, he managed to run away didn't he?  If Harry meant to kill him with magic, he would have been dead.

Um. What?

It sounds like you're saying that you don't think Harry wanted to kill Rudy, or that he didn't try to use magic to do it. Twice.

Do you mean that at some deeper level, there was a part of Harry that was fighting it? (I think that's probably true.)

[Arjan]

Um. What?

It sounds like you're saying that you don't think Harry wanted to kill Rudy, or that he didn't try to use magic to do it. Twice.

Do you mean that at some deeper level, there was a part of Harry that was fighting it? (I think that's probably true.)

He did want to kill Rudolph but did he want to kill him with magic? Or was the magic only meant to soften him up and scare him?

Maybe he wanted him to suffer first.from magic.

[ClintACK]

It sure sounded like he was going to crush him to death with his shield, when he was telling Sanya to just wait a second and it would be over. And when he hurled lightning at Rudolph, there wasn't any "I'll just hurt him a bit first" thought process.

Maybe he would have stopped and finished him off by hand, but there's nothing in the text actually saying that.

And killing with magic in anger is Harry's big Laws-of-Magic weak point, thanks to his history with Justin.

[Mira]

Um. What?

It sounds like you're saying that you don't think Harry wanted to kill Rudy, or that he didn't try to use magic to do it. Twice.

Do you mean that at some deeper level, there was a part of Harry that was fighting it? (I think that's probably true.)

Yes, no doubt Harry wanted Rudy dead, he was angry, full of hate, and full of grief, emotional to the extreme.  However if he really wanted to use his magic power to kill Rudy, he could have vaporized him end of story.  However he also had two Holy Knights trying to cool him down and prevent him from doing something that he would regret later, yeah even killing Rudy would have it's price.  Not unlike the time in The Warrior when Harry prevented Michael from beating Father Douglas to death, when he lost it over him kidnapping his daughter.

[forumghost]

Yet, he managed to run away didn't he?  If Harry meant to kill him with magic, he would have been dead.

Yeah, it sounds a lot more like the Doom part 2.  Only under the original Doom, Harry could still be a member of the White Council.  If Harry was indeed guilty of breaking the First Law, then instead of handing him his walking papers and telling him to be a good boy and not to act like a wizard anymore, Carlos should have brought a crew to take him down and behead him..  Is Harry seen in the same league as Kemmler now?

Yeah, tbh I'm kinda confused as to the Council's logic here:

"Our raison d'ętre is to control and limit Wizard's powers. Harry keeps getting more power, and that concerns us. So obviously we need to boot him out from under our Authority, thus removing what nominal control we have over him"

Like, what???

[Mira]

Yeah, tbh I'm kinda confused as to the Council's logic here:

"Our raison d'ętre is to control and limit Wizard's powers. Harry keeps getting more power, and that concerns us. So obviously we need to boot him out from under our Authority, thus removing what nominal control we have over him"

Like, what???

Exactly, or is it more of a Mission Impossible thing?  In other words they want Harry to continue what he is doing, they just don't want the fall out from it.  Kicking him out of the Council gives them plausible deniability.

[Thana†os]

Really it was just an excuse to kick him out and try to leash him. Note that when the vote took place, EB and LtW were both "in surgery"/in the hospital. Without them there, a bully-vote could be pushed through.

You would THINK he WC would REALLY want him on their side - he has a jail for nasties the WC can't destroy. He was the one ultimately responsible for taking down a Titan, he's a Starborn, etc.

You can't serve 2 Masters is the old adage and lets face it, he is the Winter Knight as well and so it brings into question his overall allegence to the WC. Winter can FORCE him to do things.

And since he was always on the fringes of the WC and not generally accepted/liked, they thought casting him out into the cold would solve their problem for them. It's not like Winter will unilaterally protect him (though I think Mab extends her influence where Harry is concerned more than he knows). What they don't realize is that it's only going to make it possible for him to gather even more power.

He's going to challenge the WC at some point. That's been slowly building up for a long, long time - with their antiquated ways and elitest attitudes...time for WC 2.0.

[BrainFireBob]

We have two good thematic answers for why the Council would kick him out

1) He's Kemmler 2.0

2) Where is the Eye of Balor?

For item 1:

1) He's allied with most of the nastier fae and has contacts among the vampire courts
2) He's on record as having used necromancy
3) He's formed his own magical society for the talented- Paranet may not be pronounced like Thule, but who is paying close attention
4) Jim's recent "Kemmler was once Warden" bombshell


For item 2:

1) If Harry took down Ethniu, Harry recovered the Eye.
2) Where is the Eye?


For plot theme 1, it's basically a panic response.
For plot theme 2, it's throwing Harry to the wolves, and the price of re-admission to the Council can be the Eye. Or isolating him, waiting for him to fall, and assuming they'll be able to find a lockbox or something.

[vultur]

The white councils definition of human is flexible apparently and it also inconsistent because if Harry really had broken the law they should put him on the death list of dangerous sorcerers and start actively hunting him, and not push him out unless they do not consider him human anymore.

En will explode when he hears about him and Lara

It's definitely inconsistent, but it's politics.

In BG Harry was acting as Winter Knight, trying to execute him for actions taken as Winter Knight (as opposed to for personal reasons) could start a conflict between the Council and Winter.

Otherwise 'warped' humans don't seem to qualify for the purposes of the First Law - Denarians for example; Harry killed them with magic in SmF when Luccio was around.

[vultur]

3. Vadderung. I'd say there is a reasonable hint he is or was also Zeus (his Spear unleashed was literally a lightning bolt). But the phrase Gard says also seems to hint that he might well have been much more. Perhaps many things.

Well he has a lot of identities... we know Kringle and Beowulf at least.

But historically Odin was identified with Mercury, Thor with Jupiter (Zeus).

The fact he is starborn suggests he was mortal or is mortal.

This seems to have very interesting implications, yeah. Per WOJ Drakul is something entirely inhuman trapped in human form. Since Starborn seems to imply being born, maybe his human form was an actual human being rather than an 'assumed' form (like Uriel's temporary human form in SG).

Maybe a starborn wizard way-back-when messed up a summoning and ended up being completely possessed?

Knowledge is power, sure. But I very much dislike the fantasy trope where a secret society with a library seem to have every book every, especially on the threat they need to face.

Well, as for lost knowledge... it seems from "Backup" that those beings that are genuinely forgotten can't act in the mortal world anymore. So beings only mentioned in completely lost books probably aren't relevant.

I agree they'd be unlikely to know the exact powers and weaknesses of really obscure beings.

12 Also, was disappointed the masquerade didn't fully drop.

Think it's a time scale issue. It hasn't fully happened at the end of BG, but the process has been set in motion. But the lack of any electronic documentation is going to be a real issue in terms of the public believing this - at first. Especially with the whole 'hallucinogenic gas' bit.

It's still going to happen, but it won't be immediate. There will be lots of different stories flying around for quite a while - confused eyewitness accounts, the official story, the Paranet version pieced together from eyewitness accounts and some background supernatural knowledge, and lots of mundane conspiracy theories (aliens, secret government experiments, etc.)

[CrusherJen]

Mab is making Harry marry Lara. What Lara gets out of it is unclear other than an alliance (and not a long term one). Jim has been foreshadowing Lara and Harry's eventual boinking since Lara was first introduced.

Mab can make Harry marry Lara, but nobody can force them to "boink." Harry has True Love protection from Karrin (as confirmed in Peace Talks) and even with her dead(ish) I don't see that fading in a year's time, especially as Harry knows she's still around as a Valkyrie. I don't have the book nearby, but I seem to recall his protection from Susan lasted a long time after their breakup. So unless something happens in the next year, the marriage would have to be political only. Lara can't touch Harry without burning herself.

[BrainFireBob]

She's not a Valkyrie, she's an Einherjar. That's explicit from Gard.

Protection from Susan literally lasted years.