HUGE BATTLE GROUND SPOILERS - (Un)Answered questions

[BrainFireBob]

Depends on the Fallen. Anduriel has generally been content to work with Nicodemus. We have no idea on the preferences of Thorned Namshiel. It might also depend on the "quality" of the host.

[Mira]

Depends on the Fallen. Anduriel has generally been content to work with Nicodemus. We have no idea on the preferences of Thorned Namshiel. It might also depend on the "quality" of the host.

Only if their agendas match.. 

[riff.freelance]

My personal take on Marcone/Namshiel:
Marcone is not a simple host to be "overpowered" and ridden like a car. He is a stronger host more like a horse, he could be "broken" or worked alongside as long as the destination is generally the same. Personally, I think that this will kinda slow burn in the background as Harry and Marcone have to interact and get a bit of a "bro-mance" almost friendly relationship. Then redemption equals death; Marcone will lay down the Coin over loosing control... only to die for the lack of power. I don't know... All I can say for sure is that Harry and Marcone will have to work together more, and somehow we will feel loss over Marcone.

[Mira]

My personal take on Marcone/Namshiel:
Marcone is not a simple host to be "overpowered" and ridden like a car. He is a stronger host more like a horse, he could be "broken" or worked alongside as long as the destination is generally the same. Personally, I think that this will kinda slow burn in the background as Harry and Marcone have to interact and get a bit of a "bro-mance" almost friendly relationship. Then redemption equals death; Marcone will lay down the Coin over loosing control... only to die for the lack of power. I don't know... All I can say for sure is that Harry and Marcone will have to work together more, and somehow we will feel loss over Marcone.

Could be, this is what Lasciel tried to sell Harry on.  However if Marcone continues to get something out of it, well, we will see.  Yes, he got what he wanted in the fight against the Titian, but that is over now.

[Arjan]

Yeah, but Hannah was never Marcone.  He is a wheeler dealer, he likes to be in control, he likes power.  Short term and and Namshiel will get along just fine, but how long will he like not calling the shots?

That doesn’t matter because he will always think he is calling the shots. Just like Nicodemus does and he was manipulated into killing his own daughter. There is always room to fall even more.

Remember what Lash tried to do and that was only the shadow, not the fallen itself. She invented persons to influence him. She altered Harry’s view of reality and made him more angry. All according to the rules apparently. Marcone gets the same treatment only worse and he chose to wear it. Marcone has to give up the coin or he will be its slave sooner or later.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

My personal take on Marcone/Namshiel:
Marcone is not a simple host to be "overpowered" and ridden like a car. He is a stronger host more like a horse, he could be "broken" or worked alongside as long as the destination is generally the same. Personally, I think that this will kinda slow burn in the background as Harry and Marcone have to interact and get a bit of a "bro-mance" almost friendly relationship. Then redemption equals death; Marcone will lay down the Coin over loosing control... only to die for the lack of power. I don't know... All I can say for sure is that Harry and Marcone will have to work together more, and somehow we will feel loss over Marcone.

Nope he is a tiger, and probably a type of host Namshiel has never encountered.

[vultur]

What is odd is that Namshiel and thus Marcone can use magic. Especially since no other Fallen uses magic unless their host is a wizard.

I think it's a matter of preferences/approach, not limited ability.

We know that it's technically possible for "regular people" to learn magic, but without the Sight it's compared to a blind person learning to paint. With a Fallen's knowledge, that can probably be overcome.

But it's probably a lot quicker/easier to turn into a giant monster Ursiel/Magog style, especially for someone who already knows how to fight.

And Harry calls Namshiel "Master of Sorcery". His preferences likely make that something he would offer early on (bring it up even if the host doesn't know it's possible) - not so for Ursiel or Magog.

[BrainFireBob]

Namshiel can probably provide the Sight

[riff.freelance]

I think it's a matter of preferences/approach, not limited ability.

We know that it's technically possible for "regular people" to learn magic, but without the Sight it's compared to a blind person learning to paint. With a Fallen's knowledge, that can probably be overcome.

But it's probably a lot quicker/easier to turn into a giant monster Ursiel/Magog style, especially for someone who already knows how to fight.

And Harry calls Namshiel "Master of Sorcery". His preferences likely make that something he would offer early on (bring it up even if the host doesn't know it's possible) - not so for Ursiel or Magog.

And we've seen what even a modest talent can get up to with the proper supervision: Butters and Bob. I personally think that if the fallen really wanted to they could get wizard level ability out of anyone they chose to co-pilot... with the proper effort. Effort some don't choose to expend.

[dylanfa]

I think people are wrong to assume Harry won't use the Eye. He will, but the point of Mab's love/hate vs. reason wasn't the reason it part - it was to provide a hint that while the Eye has traditionally been powered by intense hate, Harry will find some way to do something with it fueled by "The Power of Love(tm)."

[vultur]

Namshiel can probably provide the Sight

I agree; even if it's not exactly the same thing as what a conventional wizard would use, the Fallen can absolutely perceive magical energies itself, and it can use its ability to influence the host's perceptions to convey that.

I think any of the Denarian Fallen could do this, but the personalities & needs of host and Fallen mean that they usually don't. The ones that are just thugs and go through hosts quickly (like Magog) don't bother, and some of the others probably usually pick hosts who already are magical practitioners.

[Mira]

I think people are wrong to assume Harry won't use the Eye. He will, but the point of Mab's love/hate vs. reason wasn't the reason it part - it was to provide a hint that while the Eye has traditionally been powered by intense hate, Harry will find some way to do something with it fueled by "The Power of Love(tm)."

It may wait for the BAT, but I agree, if it is needed Harry will use it.  When you think about it, it isn't too much of a stretch, at this point anyway, Harry hates Outsiders, he also hates the Black Court.

[ClintACK]

Depends on the Fallen. Anduriel has generally been content to work with Nicodemus. We have no idea on the preferences of Thorned Namshiel. It might also depend on the "quality" of the host.

Two points:
(1) All of the Denarians who are partners (like Nicodemus, Tessa, and Deirdre) are called by the host's name. Those who were fully subjugated (like Magog and Ursiel) are called by the fallen's name. In Small Favor, Thorned Namshiel was called Thorned Namshiel.

(Counterpoint: In Skin Game, Ursiel's host seemed to be in charge, so the same fallen might subjugate one host but "partner" with another. Or start out "partners" with a long slow slide into subjugation.)

(2) There are really strong indications in Skin Game (Michael's conversation with Nicodemus in the Vault) that Nicodemus isn't actually an equal partner -- that he's not a subjugated slave, but that he's still manipulated by the fallen and after thousands of years of such manipulation he's no more free than Ursiel's first host was. He just doesn't realize it.

[EBRIEN]

Murphy's scene was rough but gave a good glimpse at what a villain-Harry could be.

I'm curious about the smell of sulphur and brimstone when Butters passed the sword thru Harry. Winter Knight mantle wouldn't smell like that. Residual Lash?

[morriswalters]

Sulfur is brimstone more or less.  God likes it. Ask Sodom and Gomorrah. Jim may have meant fire and brimstone. As in a biblical judgement of his deed.