McAnally's (The Community Pub) > The Bar

Holocaust denial in Turn Coat?

<< < (2/3) > >>

Otlan:
I would like to point out, that History is written by the victorious, but history is often much more complicated and darker then that.

Take the example of Christoper Columbious for example. Hailed as a hero for being the first man to discover America, with the help of his backer queen Ezabela of Spain after she pawned off all her jewelry to fund the expodition. Not one word of any of that is true.

-First and foremost. Columbious wasn't trying to discover Amarica or prove that the earth was round. In fact, Columbious believed the earth was flat, and continued to believe it until the day he died. Amarica had already been discoverd by other exploers, most notably the Vikings and Ferdanad Majelien. Columbia's was actually trying to find a faster Trade Rout to Asia. Instead, he wound up in South Amarica.

-Secound. Queen Ezabela never had to pawn one piece of jewelery to fund his expodition. See, Queen Ezabela was a Catholic, and had a habit of burning at the stake "Heatens" while a couior sang to keep the screams from offending her ears, with all the wealth from said poor souls being seized by the crown. It was this wealth she used to fund the expodition.

-Third. When Columbis finally did land, he and his crew were greeted peacefully by the natives, who Columbis and his men began to kill and enslave, until very few of them remained. He then took, along with the slaves, all the Spices, Fabrics and Gold his ship would hold, and returned to the queen and his homeland in Victory.

That's the real history, but for a long time, people would shut they're eyes and try to deny it, because they didn't want to beleive they'd been idolizeing a fucking Monster. Humans are kind of idiotic stupid funny that way. They don't want the truth. Just the Painted Version.

Having said that, yes, the Holocost was an unimaginable tragedy, one of the darkest moments in human history and should not be downplayed or denied. But this conversation between Harry and Lucile makes no mention of it specifically. Keep in mind, Hitler was accused of a lot of things. Some even think he managed to escape. The two of them could be talking about anything related to the war, not just the Holocost. There were also rumors that Hitler dabled in the Arcane. Harry and Lucile are Wizards.

Maby we shouldn't jump to conclusions until we have the Facts.

Bonus Fact: Two of Columbiouses ship, the Nina and the Pinta, are Sailor Slang for Prostituets. Being a God Fearing man, Columbious made them name the third ship the Santa Maria.

B33bl3br0x:
Luccio is not denying any of the atrocities committed by Germany during WWII.

Harry is admonishing the White Council for its policy of noninvolvement in mortal affairs, using as an example, interceding during the war against the Axis powers because they were clearly super duper evil because of what they did.

Her response is basically a "hindsight is 20/20" thing. Looking back, throwing in with the Allies would clearly put you on the side of good, but it wasn't so clear at the time. She's saying that while WWII was happening there were stories of atrocities being carried out everywhere (by both the Axis and Allies) and most of the stories that were being circulated [bold]during the war[/bold] ended up being untrue; that is, at the time there was no way to tell that the reports of the holocaust were true. Remember that the character was alive at the time.

It is a bit of a cop out on Luccio's part because the WC was in a position to examine the stories of atrocities. Even though there were a lot of them, determining the truth of them all would have been possible for the council, though it certainly would have occupied a lot of time.

Dina:
I agree about what you and Otlan said, B33. I just will add my 2 cents.
I have a friend who is born and raised in Argentina but lives in Israel since many years ago. She told me that she and her (Jew) family is witness that at first, during the world, not even jewish living in what today is the country of Israel believe what the rumors said. It simply sounded like terror stories that were too awful to be true. Sadly, they were true, of course. But at the moment, not many people believed it. So what Luccio is saying is that today all is clear but it was not so clear at the moment. And I understand it because the generation of my parents had a lot of people that did not believe in the tragedy of our dictatorship in Argentina killing people, throwing them to the river from planes (sometimes alive), stealing the babies of the women that they had in concentration centers. There were rumors, some people believe it, some people not. And some of them believe that the dictatorship was saving them from something worse (anarchy, communism, violence). I won't say more because RL politics is very TT, but my point is...while the story is happening, not everyone can see it well or realize what is truly happening.

sayyadina:
I'd have to say Luccio's assessment is acurate based on what I know. This never bothered me at all. The world was different then and no one truly knew the reality of the horror until the Nazis were defeated and the Allies liberated the concentration camps. My family is Jewish and my grandfather served in the war. He never spoke of what he saw, though. What I know is from what I learned in school and my own research given my personal interest in the subject. There was this one documentary I saw once that was quite good, but I can't for the life of me remember its title.

Luccio is also getting at something deeper, I think. Evil people don't see themselves as evil. Hitler didn't think he was evil and there were people who agreed with him. Personally I thought her take on the issue aligned with the facts as far as I know them and also brought out a more nuanced take on human nature that I appreciated. YMMV but it didn't bother me at all.

PilgrimDan:
In his series “Supernova in the East” Dan Carlin goes into detail about the Japanese actions in China, especially Nanking. He points out, as bad as things got there, the press still made things up, like two Japanese soldiers engaging in a beheading contest. He also points out that what previous Empires, like the Assyrians, would have celebrated, we seek to minimise, or deny altogether.

Also, a little perspective: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZeU9QVh4MI8
So we don’t forget the *other* victims of the Nazi regime.

Navigation

[0] Message Index

[#] Next page

[*] Previous page