Did Ebeneezer use Mind Magic to make Thomas try the hit?

[Silentbrick]

My wife just mentioned a theory that Eb, mad that Harry was allowing Thomas to be near Maggie, worked a mind magic whammy on Thomas to try and kill Etri.  Obviously Eb is pretty psycho about hating the White Court, and I find it just as plausible that Eb whammied Thomas as Justine being nemfected.  Eb also 'tested' the Svartalfs security when he visited and mentioned how they occasionally needed to be reminded they couldn't control everything.

Personally, I don't know.  I don't /want/ to think Eb would do it, but honestly, Eb in Peace Talks feels very....odd compared to the past.   Very out of character in some ways.

Anyway, thoughts and comments on it are appreciated.

[Silentbrick]

And she just pointed out, are we sure that Eb is Eb?  She mentioned that maybe someone is actually impersonating him?  She said Thomas might have been saying "Justin" not Justine and that possibly Justin is impersonating them.  Eb keeps mentioning someone coming up behind Harry, that the scales must be balanced. 

[JumpyDragon]

Hmmm...maybe. I was pointed out that when Harry found Thomas being held prisoner, Thomas was still wearing his running shoes. I was also told that hardcore runners do NOT wear their running shoes out and about. While Thomas may not be a hardcore runner, I don't see him walking around in his jogging gear for hours on end after the fact. So, the idea that I heard is that Thomas was captured rather quickly after he left the apartment. Harry and Eb were together for a while.

That being said, the whole Eb mind whammy Thomas could be possible. I agree that Eb is not the same in this book. He's been giving me serious alarm bells.  I personally think that Eb is Nemfected. It would be damn near impossible for a normal wizard to mind whammy Eb due to his age.

I personally don't think Thomas is in his straight mindset (besides being beaten silly to a pulp and severely hungry) either.

[Mira]

I personally don't think Thomas is in his straight mindset (besides being beaten silly to a pulp and severely hungry) either.

Yeah, that has struck me from the beginning also, either the elves are tough little SOBs or it isn't Thomas.  As far as the shoes and clothes go, you could be right.

However, a couple of things, for starters something was weird about Thomas during their run.  Yes,
he was nervous and anxious over Justine and the baby, but he also sort of alluded to having a plan
to having a plan of some sort to deal with it. It was subtle and easy to miss, but he made it.

Would Lara have been that easily fooled?  I mean she was feeding his Hunger to keep him alive.
If it had been someone else, I think she would have felt it.

[ClintACK]

That was my theory at the time, too. Remember that the two points he wanted to make to Harry were: (1) Thomas isn't safe to have around Maggie and (2) the Svartalves aren't who he thinks they are -- the embassy isn't a safe place to raise Maggie.

This little 'incident' would illustrate both points admirably.

And, oh look, Maggie's not living at the svartalf embassy any more. And Thomas isn't going to be around her for the foreseeable future.

But we'll all know in a few days...

[Mira]

That was my theory at the time, too. Remember that the two points he wanted to make to Harry were: (1) Thomas isn't safe to have around Maggie and (2) the Svartalves aren't who he thinks they are -- the embassy isn't a safe place to raise Maggie.

We also know now that Eb is a bit out of control.  He also said that Maggie shouldn't be around Harry either.  He thought she should have remained at the Carpenters, though he didn't know that Michael encouraged  Harry to make a home for her and to be a father.  But then Michael knows Harry a lot better than Eb does even without a soul gaze.

[Silentbrick]

To be fair, Michael I think is a much better father than Eb was.  Sure his daughter is a warlock and now Winter Lady, but the rest of the kids are fine.

[Mira]

To be fair, Michael I think is a much better father than Eb was.  Sure his daughter is a warlock and now Winter Lady, but the rest of the kids are fine.

Nothing wrong with Molly either, she rebelled a bit, not unlike any other teen no matter how well brought up.  What complicated matters for her was she had talent and no idea the dangers of that.
Let's not forget that yes, she went down the warlock path or started down that path in an effort to help her friends.  She had no idea that it was wrong to go into someone's mind, to try and influence that mind, and that she could be doing everlasting harm by doing it.  Nor did she know that that act in of itself could be addictive.

[Arjan]

We also know now that Eb is a bit out of control.  He also said that Maggie shouldn't be around Harry either.  He thought she should have remained at the Carpenters, though he didn't know that Michael encouraged  Harry to make a home for her and to be a father.  But then Michael knows Harry a lot better than Eb does even without a soul gaze.

I think there is some woj that Harry and Michael actually did soul gaze.

[BrainFireBob]

My wife just mentioned a theory that Eb, mad that Harry was allowing Thomas to be near Maggie, worked a mind magic whammy on Thomas to try and kill Etri.  Obviously Eb is pretty psycho about hating the White Court, and I find it just as plausible that Eb whammied Thomas as Justine being nemfected.  Eb also 'tested' the Svartalfs security when he visited and mentioned how they occasionally needed to be reminded they couldn't control everything.

Personally, I don't know.  I don't /want/ to think Eb would do it, but honestly, Eb in Peace Talks feels very....odd compared to the past.   Very out of character in some ways.

Anyway, thoughts and comments on it are appreciated.

If the corner hounds show up when someone time-travels, and the Blackstaff can break any of the Laws with immunity, then there may have been two Ebs running around. He's particularly insistent on finding out that Eitri is nearby, and also making sure that everyone is a) Paying attention to him and not other places, and b) Noticing that he's nowhere near Thomas.

So, extend it a step: The Eb we see is possibly a time traveled Eb, or there is one outside whammying Thomas when this one is talking to Harry. When did he go back? Right after he and Harry confront each other outside Justine's. It's even perfect timing- he has a starborn to cover the cornerhounds for him.

[Mira]

I think there is some woj that Harry and Michael actually did soul gaze.

I remember that vaguely as well, but I wasn't sure.  So who's judgement do we trust here?  Eb
who did a soul gaze with the angry teenage Harry?  Or Michael who did one sometime later and thinks Harry will do fine as a father?

If the corner hounds show up when someone time-travels, and the Blackstaff can break any of the Laws with immunity, then there may have been two Ebs running around. He's particularly insistent on finding out that Eitri is nearby, and also making sure that everyone is a) Paying attention to him and not other places, and b) Noticing that he's nowhere near Thomas.

As Outsiders they are called up by mortals, that is mentioned in Peace Talks as the fight is happening and it is also a factor in Blood Rites when Madge and friends called up HWWB.

So, extend it a step: The Eb we see is possibly a time traveled Eb, or there is one outside whammying Thomas when this one is talking to Harry. When did he go back? Right after he and Harry confront each other outside Justine's. It's even perfect timing- he has a starborn to cover the cornerhounds for him.

I think that is making things a little too complicated, even for Jim.

[Arjan]

I remember that vaguely as well, but I wasn't sure.  So who's judgement do we trust here?  Eb
who did a soul gaze with the angry teenage Harry?  Or Michael who did one sometime later and thinks Harry will do fine as a father?

it is not about Harry’s qualities as a father. It is about safety and how to best protect the child.

[Mira]

it is not about Harry’s qualities as a father. It is about safety and how to best protect the child.

 Not saying safety isn't important, but it doesn't mean much if she doesn't have a loving parent.  I can think of a lot of important people who's children are vulnerable to a degree because of who their parents are.  Yet their kids aren't taken away from them.  Harry was right, Susan kept little Maggie away from him, didn't even tell him she existed, kept them away from herself, yet Maggie's foster parents were murdered before her eyes and the Red King nearly slit her throat.  If safety and protection were so great, how come things didn't turn out well for Margaret?  Harry is scared for life because after Malcolm died, he may have been safe, but he wasn't loved. 

A kid needs love, with love comes security, the rest can be handled one way or another.  Michael agrees with that, he wouldn't have agreed to turn Maggie over to Harry if he thought she'd come to harm. 

[Arjan]

Not saying safety isn't important, but it doesn't mean much if she doesn't have a loving parent.  I can think of a lot of important people who's children are vulnerable to a degree because of who their parents are.  Yet their kids aren't taken away from them.  Harry was right, Susan kept little Maggie away from him, didn't even tell him she existed, kept them away from herself, yet Maggie's foster parents were murdered before her eyes and the Red King nearly slit her throat.  If safety and protection were so great, how come things didn't turn out well for Margaret?  Harry is scared for life because after Malcolm died, he may have been safe, but he wasn't loved. 

A kid needs love, with love comes security, the rest can be handled one way or another.  Michael agrees with that, he wouldn't have agreed to turn Maggie over to Harry if he thought she'd come to harm.

But that was not the point. The point was that Ebenezer's policy to hide children from everyone was not based on parental qualities so any soul gaze was irrelevant. Harry could be the best father in the world and Ebenezar would not think any different about it.

Michael and Harry do think giving Maggie good and real parents is worth the risk, Ebenezer does not.

[Mira]

But that was not the point. The point was that Ebenezer's policy to hide children from everyone was not based on parental qualities so any soul gaze was irrelevant. Harry could be the best father in the world and Ebenezar would not think any different about it.

Michael and Harry do thing giving Maggie good and real parents is worth the risk, Ebenezer does not.

Yes, that is what I am saying and what Harry and Michael are saying has merit.  Now is Eb saying this because he really believe it?  Or is it his way to justify how both his grandson and his daughter's life were messed up because he wasn't in their lives when they needed a father and a grandfather?
It rings true from my experience, I was married to a man for forty years who was shipped off to another state along with his brothers and sister after his mother died because living with his maiden aunt in a small town was considered more wholesome than Chicago.  Harry sounds a lot like my husband did on the subject, just a bit bitter. And guess what? His father sounded a whole lot like Eb..  Know what else?  They never were able to resolve it.  So it will be interesting to see how the fantasy works out if Eb survives the coming battle.