The Placard

[Mira]

That scene doesn't "show" anything though; it doesn't quantify sin or even suggest that it is real beyond the metaphorical concept. Harry isn't even sure that the use is the same. And it certainly doesn't show that Christ saved anyone. It implies what he might have used the Placard for... although there is no indication that it was anything other than a normal placard when it was used on Jesus. If anything, the constant implication is that Christ made those objects special.

True, actually I don't think sin can be something that can be quantified.  I think man tends to label things as "sin" as defined by his or her belief system.  There are a few outstanding things like murder for example that we can all agree on as a sin.  Then there are the minor things, drinking, per-marital sex, smoking, dancing, swearing, etc....There is a long list of them.  Some were sins a hundred years ago, but accepted now as perfectly fine.

Just did a quick check and placards weren't usually nailed above the condemned on the cross, though the condemned sometimes carried them in the street on their way to execution.
The question you are asking is a matter of belief.  If one believes that Jesus truly died on the Cross so we may be forgiven our sins, then the placard could hold great power.  For the sake of the story, the assumption is this is true, so the Placard has great power, the Dresden Files is also a fantasy, so for the sake of the story, the Placard can mean anything the author wants.   

[Yuillegan]

Agreed. Sins have changed over the decades and centuries. If mortal actions in the series can have spiritual weight (which is hinted at) then one could argue that were a "force" affecting them then that could be seen as sin, and therefore the action sinful. Whether this is the case or not is unknown as Jim hasn't gone into it yet. But nothing we have seen yet in the series indicates that sin is a force beyond being a metaphor.

I'm not asking about the real world applications or powers of a placard that was hung above the man known as Jesus Christ. Let's steer clear of real world discussion on such a sensitive issue.

I am asking about the in-universe explanation for the Placard in the narrative. As I said, real world information can be useful in speculating what might be true in the series. But ultimately it is merely a guide and not even necessarily a reliable one. Jim hasn't revealed enough yet.

I don't think the Placard holds power because enough people believe in it (it's one of the lesser known items of the Arma Christi in fact). It's not like the "fake" shroud in Death Masks. It's something that has been charged with an incredible amount of spiritual energy on the scale of the Swords of the Cross. Maybe greater.

I do indeed appreciate that because the Dresden Files is a fictional series, anything borrowed from our world can mean whatever Jim Butcher as the author wishes it to mean. I understand how fiction works, there is no need to condescend please.

But considering THIS is a forum for discussion of said series, it's entirely reasonable to ask about the the mechanics and narrative devices in the context of the story. If people don't have answers that is more than fine. But I think respectful discussion is the minimum requirement here. And invite all opinions to be discussed within that framework.

[The_Sibelis]

Alright, let's get a few things straight Sibelis.

You don't know me, so don't presume to know my views or beliefs. This forum is one for the discussion of spoilers pertaining to the Dresden Files series. Attack my arguments by all means but steer clear of attacking me. It's entirely inappropriate to comment on or speculate on my religious beliefs (or lack of as the case may be). My beliefs are and views are irrelevant and no one else's business, nor are anyone else's on this forum. So I remind you that such speculation and discussion are against the rules of this forum and I invite you to engage me based on the points I raise in my arguments, not speculate on things that are outside the purview of the topic. I understand you might feel that I attacked something you believe in, but I did not, and to do so would have been wrong of me.

I am not, and was not, attacking or otherwise railing against Christian beliefs. My argument was clear enough and if you read it back carefully you will see that I disagreed that the passage "shows" what you claimed. I did not say that Christ didn't die for the sins of humanity or sin wasn't real, I stayed well outside our real world and made no definitive statement or position on real world topics and would ask you do the same. Do not mistake my tone for anger. I am being direct because it is necessary in order to have respectful debate on this forum.



Now to your argument itself.
1. How does the scene "show" sin in a quantifiable way, how does it show Christ died for the sins of humanity in the Dresden Files? "Show" means to cause something to be visible or perceived. In what way was Sin or Christ's redemption visible in that scene?

An example of something (such as a force) being shown in the series is Soulfire. In SmF Harry first shows an application of Soulfire (even though we do not yet know what it is). We later get a small explanation from Mab to what it is, and further from Bob. An excellent scene with both exposition of the force that is Soulfire and the application of it is during Cold Days when Harry contests with the will of Mother Winter and breaks the bonds laid on him.

In no way does the scene in which the Placard is used show sin. 

Where in that body of text is the force that is Sin shown? Where is the exposition or depiction of Christ redeeming humanity? It isn't there.  This is the only bit that even references it, and Harry thinks it is a maybe. It is unclear, uncertain, and lacking in detail. Which is part of why it's in there. For us readers to speculate on and for Jim to perhaps lay some ground work. It certainly doesn't connect how even the event of pouring the "accumulated sins of humanity onto Christ" would create an "embodied intercission" or what it had to do with Christ's redemption of humanity. It's not facts, even in-universe, it is speculation. Whether the event (read:crucifixion) happened in the Dresdenverse (seems likely) and what was actually going on beyond the torture and execution of God's only Son has not been stated. Some on these forums believe Jim will never make a definite statement about it at all. I suspect he will but currently we have next to know facts about the event. Using real world information from our universe is good for speculation but ultimately is still not fact and you can be sure Jim will have his own take. But we must be careful not to confuse a work of fiction with an event in our world.

Even if you believe Harry is Doylistly (as you put it) supplying the reader with information, it isn't clear in-universe how he came in possession of such high-level information (unless you believe any old person in the series could just find out). So the fact remains that either it is poor writing and Jim just forgot to mention how Harry actually found this out OR he is setting it up for later. Which is more likely.

I have no idea what you mean when you say that you couldn't use the Placard in such a way if sin WASN'T a quantifiable force. The scene explains how the artifact can be used, sure. But it doesn't say how the artifact came to be this way. It was just a sign originally, as far as we know. It's association with the Crucifixion and Christ is likely (but not definitely) how it gained it unique properties but we don't know for sure, as Jim hasn't yet explained that. Even Harry doesn't know - he is merely speculating.

The closest we have come to seeing something like Sin is the corruption that Lasciel and Anduriel have displayed. Lasciel mentions that the Fallen are corruption, and Anduriel shows his influence in Skin Game when pulsing while Nicodemus is having a monologue. But even there it isn't explicit. So for now, it's as much a metaphor in the series as love (in fact more so).

back up, take a breath, and remember you are not required to argue against ANYTHING here. Addressing me in such a manor is way beyond any presumed rule breaking you'd claim of me. I asked you to pls not do something you did appear to be doing. And your reply coming so strongly implies to me you were indeed doing that and don't appreciate being called out for it. If it's a non issue then me thinks doth protest too much and all that... But let's move on to your supposed points against it shall we?
1 by the fact TWC could conceivably even use the placard to bear the brunt of humanities sin, the DF tends to parallel and respect irl religion in so much as Jim is capable. For harry to go out of his way to state that's the kind of thing TWC used it for is very much a statement to what it was used for and how TWC literally saved us from Sin. Jim didn't have to throw that in there anymore than say, that Santa is a summonable fae, but he did. And it he did with INTENTIONS. To imply that it's even possible shows sin as a quantifiable force. Something which can be given a vector of direction and magnitude using the placard.
Everything else is just as much supposition against it as the idea for it. When one theory exists based on something in the books, someone else gain saying it by simply not agreeing isn't actually a thing, no matter how much it might be wished to be. Otherwise I'd blast that three walkers/who walks between outta the water there.

[Mira]

I am asking about the in-universe explanation for the Placard in the narrative. As I said, real world information can be useful in speculating what might be true in the series. But ultimately it is merely a guide and not even necessarily a reliable one. Jim hasn't revealed enough yet.

Which I don't think you will get, simply because it is based on faith and not actually quantitative evidence.  It is universally believed among Christians that Jesus died for our sins and the importance of God's forgiveness.  There is no concrete proof of any of that, but that is the belief.  You will notice that "faith" is an important theme in the series as a whole.  Example, the bogus Shroud in Death Masks, Harry could feel the power it held.  Later in Skin Game we learned that it was fake, but it was speculated that it had become powerful because people believed it was real.

As far as the Placard goes, there is no real world explanation for it that I can find, other than if it were found and authenticated, it would be treated as a Holy Relic, not unlike fragments of what people believe is the "True Cross."  Jim has made up his own facts about what the Placard if found would mean, partly based on the original concept of why Christ died on the Cross, and what he needs to make up, to further the story. 
 

[BrainFireBob]

Agreed. Sins have changed over the decades and centuries. If mortal actions in the series can have spiritual weight (which is hinted at) then one could argue that were a "force" affecting them then that could be seen as sin, and therefore the action sinful. Whether this is the case or not is unknown as Jim hasn't gone into it yet. But nothing we have seen yet in the series indicates that sin is a force beyond being a metaphor.

I'm not asking about the real world applications or powers of a placard that was hung above the man known as Jesus Christ. Let's steer clear of real world discussion on such a sensitive issue.

I am asking about the in-universe explanation for the Placard in the narrative. As I said, real world information can be useful in speculating what might be true in the series. But ultimately it is merely a guide and not even necessarily a reliable one. Jim hasn't revealed enough yet.

I don't think the Placard holds power because enough people believe in it (it's one of the lesser known items of the Arma Christi in fact). It's not like the "fake" shroud in Death Masks. It's something that has been charged with an incredible amount of spiritual energy on the scale of the Swords of the Cross. Maybe greater.

I do indeed appreciate that because the Dresden Files is a fictional series, anything borrowed from our world can mean whatever Jim Butcher as the author wishes it to mean. I understand how fiction works, there is no need to condescend please.

But considering THIS is a forum for discussion of said series, it's entirely reasonable to ask about the the mechanics and narrative devices in the context of the story. If people don't have answers that is more than fine. But I think respectful discussion is the minimum requirement here. And invite all opinions to be discussed within that framework.

In universe?

The interdiction effect is incidental. It marks the owner of the placard as the proxy for the property to which it is affixed- Mac is the sacrificial lamb in place of all those who are within his delineated demesne now. They, magically speaking, are invalid targets because they "really" exist within the super-threshold of Mac's being.

You can see the line of thought. Like a video game where the cursor won't go active on invalid targets.

[The_Sibelis]

In universe?

The interdiction effect is incidental. It marks the owner of the placard as the proxy for the property to which it is affixed- Mac is the sacrificial lamb in place of all those who are within his delineated demesne now. They, magically speaking, are invalid targets because they "really" exist within the super-threshold of Mac's being.

You can see the line of thought. Like a video game where the cursor won't go active on invalid targets.

well said.

[Yuillegan]

In universe?

The interdiction effect is incidental. It marks the owner of the placard as the proxy for the property to which it is affixed- Mac is the sacrificial lamb in place of all those who are within his delineated demesne now. They, magically speaking, are invalid targets because they "really" exist within the super-threshold of Mac's being.

You can see the line of thought. Like a video game where the cursor won't go active on invalid targets.

A valid enough theory. But it isn't the mechanics of how the Placard works that I am questioning, but how Harry comes to possess that knowledge.

I say in-universe because as far as I am aware, the Placard is not known to do such things in our universe or any other (fictional or otherwise). I am looking for the explanation in the text, or a WOJ at the least.

Which I don't think you will get, simply because it is based on faith and not actually quantitative evidence.  It is universally believed among Christians that Jesus died for our sins and the importance of God's forgiveness.  There is no concrete proof of any of that, but that is the belief.  You will notice that "faith" is an important theme in the series as a whole.  Example, the bogus Shroud in Death Masks, Harry could feel the power it held.  Later in Skin Game we learned that it was fake, but it was speculated that it had become powerful because people believed it was real.

As far as the Placard goes, there is no real world explanation for it that I can find, other than if it were found and authenticated, it would be treated as a Holy Relic, not unlike fragments of what people believe is the "True Cross."  Jim has made up his own facts about what the Placard if found would mean, partly based on the original concept of why Christ died on the Cross, and what he needs to make up, to further the story. 

Why on Earth wouldn't we? We have had explanations and exposition for the Swords of the Cross which are artefacts of faith. We have in-universe quantitative evidence of them. Same with Soulfire. Harry has been shown, told about and mused on these things. The Placard is very new in the piece and all of a sudden Harry knows exactly how it works with no one showing him or him discovering that information? Even the Noose that Nicodemus wears gets explained by Shiro and we see evidence of how it works.

Even that "fake" Shroud has exposition. So your argument about real world knowledge that the reader has or brings in isn't really relevant. We are discussing writing techniques and narrative structure.

back up, take a breath, and remember you are not required to argue against ANYTHING here. Addressing me in such a manor is way beyond any presumed rule breaking you'd claim of me. I asked you to pls not do something you did appear to be doing. And your reply coming so strongly implies to me you were indeed doing that and don't appreciate being called out for it. If it's a non issue then me thinks doth protest too much and all that... But let's move on to your supposed points against it shall we?
1 by the fact TWC could conceivably even use the placard to bear the brunt of humanities sin, the DF tends to parallel and respect irl religion in so much as Jim is capable. For harry to go out of his way to state that's the kind of thing TWC used it for is very much a statement to what it was used for and how TWC literally saved us from Sin. Jim didn't have to throw that in there anymore than say, that Santa is a summonable fae, but he did. And it he did with INTENTIONS. To imply that it's even possible shows sin as a quantifiable force. Something which can be given a vector of direction and magnitude using the placard.
Everything else is just as much supposition against it as the idea for it. When one theory exists based on something in the books, someone else gain saying it by simply not agreeing isn't actually a thing, no matter how much it might be wished to be. Otherwise I'd blast that three walkers/who walks between outta the water there.

SIBELIS
I am not arguing against anything. But I do have the right to use the forums without aspersions being cast on my beliefs and speculation about what I am supposedly doing.

Just so you understand:

Member Responsibility:
Members should always strive to practice positive attributes:
--Acknowledge other people, assume good will, be quick to praise and slow to criticize, add knowledge, offer help, be slow to anger, apologize when wrong, politely ask for clarification, and exercise patience when your temper flares.

Forbidden Discussion Items:
Religion outside of  Book Canon
Personal Attacks

I have bolded the relevant sections that apply to you. None of what I have done or said so far has violated any forum rules (as far as I can see). You have made assumptions, personal attacks on me about what your perceive to be my beliefs.

I am asking, again, that you steer clear of that. It is isn't relevant, it's impolite, uncalled for and it's against the forum rules.

YOU don't have to respond on this thread. It's open to everyone provided they are respectful. But there is no need to comment if you don't have anything positive to say. There is a whole thread on the Rule of Don't. One of the main things is Don't Bait. By assuming my beliefs and attaching them to my arguments you are baiting. Particularly when it involves religious beliefs. Whether you intended to or not, it's bait.

It doesn't matter whether you believe I was doing something or not. If you have an issue you can PM me or report to a moderator. But you instead baited me. And now you're attempting it further by saying things like:

And your reply coming so strongly implies to me you were indeed doing that and don't appreciate being called out for it. If it's a non issue then me thinks doth protest too much and all that...

That's deliberately baiting me. I am taking issue with the fact that instead of debating my arguments, you chose to bait me by speculating on my personal beliefs. That's not on. I won't stand for it.



Now, to the arguments and the debate.
1. You haven't answered my question. Where does it show (as in: reveal by exposition in the text) sin? Which bit described what Sin was or how it works? The answer of course is that it didn't. Secondly, there isn't evidence in that passage to say that the Placard did anything for Christ. It was Christ who had the power, not the wood. None of the items in the Crucifixion (even in real world dogma) were special on their own. It is the association with Jesus and the Crucifixion that made them special. So how exactly did Christ use the Placard? How is it even shown? Harry only guesses (and not a confident guess at that) at how the Crucifixion made the Placard special. But Harry isn't recounting the events of the Crucifixion (he wasn't there and he hasn't got first hand information). Christ wasn't in that scene (as far as we are aware).

Why Jim may have put something in the text or left it out is worthwhile discussion but without his input all we can do is guess. Perhaps he wanted us as readers to think Harry understood how the Placard works. Perhaps he thought it was the kind of guess Harry would make. But we simply don't know. It's not fact.

When one theory exists based on something in the books, someone else gain saying it by simply not agreeing isn't actually a thing, no matter how much it might be wished to be. Otherwise I'd blast that three walkers/who walks between outta the water there.

There you go again, trying to bait me by implying I don't wish Sin or religion to exist. Again, you don't have any idea of my personal views so I will ask for a final time that you refrain from doing so. I am debating what is in the text, so let's stick to that. I am not disagreeing for the sake of it. I am disagreeing because so far, there has been no textual exposition of Sin or how Christ redeemed humanity or how Harry became aware of the mechanics of the Placard.

[morriswalters]

There are two possibilities, he will explain it in Battle Ground, or he won't.  However the placard itself named Jesus for the crime he was crucified for and Jesus died for our sins.(This for anyone who holds with this tradition). And this is literally what Jim has it doing. He may consider this explanation enough.

[Yuillegan]

There are two possibilities, he will explain it in Battle Ground, or he won't.  However the placard itself named Jesus for the crime he was crucified for and Jesus died for our sins.(This for anyone who holds with this tradition). And this is literally what Jim has it doing. He may consider this explanation enough.

I'm aware of those possibilities.

But that doesn't explain how Harry knows mechanics that afaik are Jim's creations i.e. how the Placard can be used. There is no tradition I am aware of that says the Placard can be used to create a super-threshold. So naturally, this is Jim's invention. Harry is aware of this but no other character apart from Mac seemed to be. But how would Harry have come by such information?

I have not once said that Christ didn't die for anyone's sins in either our universe or any other. That's not what this discussion is about. I questioned how that scene showed Sin as a quantifiable force and how the scene showed that Christ died for the sins of humanity in the Dresden Files. Because the scene in question doesn't show either of those things.

And for merely asking I have had my beliefs speculated on and been attacked personally. Which is inappropriate.



This discussion has gone off the rails. Clearly it's too much to ask to get everyone to answer the central question in the OP i.e. How does DRESDEN know how the Placard works and how to employ it when there is no in-text exposition or explanation and no real world common knowledge to support these apparent epiphanies? How does Harry even know about the concept of 'embodied intercession'? These are serious writing plot holes

[The_Sibelis]

@yull
1show me, in text, where I claim that scene shows what sin is or how it works?
Let's see what I actually claimed 1 Sin exists, period. I said sin exists as an actual force in the DF. Something quantifiable. This is directly correlated by Harry speaking of it as a force that could be set to a vector 2 TWC saved us from it. Which is not in any way shape or form a stretch if mythology or in no way conflicts with anything presented in the DF, quite the opposite. The redeemers blade could have saved Michael from a pact to give himself of to a fae creature in GP. TWC does that indeed have some supernaturally strong ability to save ppl from the fate of their own actions.
Everything else is not worth answering back to...
Perhaps it would make you more comfortable if I said "from my perspective" this makes sin a quantifiable force in the DF and "it appears" TWC saved us from it in a literal manor. Because that's precisely what my day original post said.
I don't have to respond, but if your going to directly quote my post and then say it's not true based on nothing but your own reasoning it's not true, despite me simply applying meaning to something DIRECTLY quotable in the book, then of course I'm going to be baited into a response. Nobody is required to try to unmake someone else's opinion, and yet that seems to be all that it is most of the time...  Little need to debate you on your perspective, you have a different one, I have one based on in book references to an idea. If someone disagrees, I'll require actual in book references for me to refute and not just "I don't think". I'm not interested in such debates. The I'm right your wrong archatype comes out strong. Let me be clear, my idea exists based on a correlation found in the books, nothing stated will gainsay that correlation ergo it can't be proven wrong by default it will continue to be just as valid as the next theory.

[Arjan]

He did study the artifacts so he might have discovered a few things and demonreach called the other one an athame without any discussion like they both knew already for some time.

[Mira]

He did study the artifacts so he might have discovered a few things and demonreach called the other one an athame without any discussion like they both knew already for some time.

  Agreed, though he did seem a little uneasy about  the athame.  He says he is "pretty sure" what it is, which means what?  That he has studied it, is 99.9% sure of what it is, but without absolute confirmation cannot be totally certain.  He also has mixed feelings because evidently using it has long term implications for him.  He says on page 336 Peace Talks;

If it truly was what I was pretty sure it was, then using it was going to put me in a long term pickle.  But if the storm for Chicago was as bad as I thought it was going to be, not using it would be unthinkable.

Alfred seems to have no doubts that the Spear/Knife was an athame, but it isn't the only one, remember the one that Lea got from Cowl at the party back in Grave Peril.  Harry knows where he found it, what it was grouped with, which is pretty good evidence of what it is.  But he doesn't have total confirmation that it is, what he thinks it is.  However if he uses it, which he believes he will have to, it is going to change his life forever.  Unless of course what people fear from the trailer is true, that somehow the Titan got it away from him, then the world is totally screwed.. Unless of course Harry gets it back.. What if Marcone gets a hold of it??  Can't wait until next Tuesday, hope Amazon gets it to me on the day it comes out this time.

[morriswalters]

People get too wound up about this.  Make no mistake, this has no relationship to Religion. He uses the framework but it ain't your old timey religion or else Mab would be the first creature vaporized by Uriel.  I simply pointed out a rationale for how it might work. There isn't anything in the text. Jim didn't write anything.  End of story. Your imagination will need to make up the deficit unless in Battle Ground he chooses to stop the action to supply the exposition.

I suspect it to be a case like Indiana Jones hiding on the deck of a submarine in broad daylight.  Write it and then get the action into high gear and cause the audience to move on and forget it.  Then at some book signing he'll give some hokey explanation and it'll become a WOJ.

[Arjan]

People get too wound up about this.  Make no mistake, this has no relationship to Religion. He uses the framework but it ain't your old timey religion or else Mab would be the first creature vaporized by Uriel.  I simply pointed out a rationale for how it might work. There isn't anything in the text. Jim didn't write anything.  End of story. Your imagination will need to make up the deficit unless in Battle Ground he chooses to stop the action to supply the exposition.

I suspect it to be a case like Indiana Jones hiding on the deck of a submarine in broad daylight.  Write it and then get the action into high gear and cause the audience to move on and forget it.  Then at some book signing he'll give some hokey explanation and it'll become a WOJ.

Getting wound up about these things is what we do 

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Harry has the following sources of information

Bob
Bonea
Demonreach
Uriel
Mab

He has certainly spoken with Alfred about them, he has had the opportunity to talk to Uriel about them, as he spoke to Uriel about setting up his family ghost arrangement for Maggie. Bob is likely to know in general what it is even if it is on a different wavelength, Bonea would know about it but it might be difficult to get her to speak about it in relatable terms, Mab would know as she tasked him to get it.

Harry therefore knew. What is amazing is Harry actually asked it.

We might get wound up, but twice a day we go cuckoo