Jury Duty and the Peace Talks

[Bad Alias]

Amoral is defined as "lacking a moral sense; unconcerned with the rightness or wrongness of something." Now if you want to call that a subset of evil, I'm fine with that. I just think it's useful to distinguish between evil, defined as "profoundly immoral and wicked," and amoral. One who is amoral could always do the right thing because the right thing is always beneficial. One who is evil will choose the wrong thing because that's what evil does.

Practically speaking, an amoral person is likely to act just as harmfully as an evil person, so it can end up being a distinction without a difference.

I do think Lara could choose to be less harmful. Thomas usually has, therefore Lara can.

[Arjan]

I think she does know the difference between good and evil, the only problem is her point of view
is very different.  She will on occasion feed upon her victims until death, we call it murder, evil, however she sees it no different than a lion killing and eating it's prey, good.  She does try to keep that in check because she understand the problems politically etc it brings her. 
She has the time for it when it is to her advantage as when she has allied with Harry for the greater good, which is also to her advantage.

The answer is no, in my opinion because her view point is so different from our own.

In real life good and evil are relative dependent on the culture of group you belong to and ultimately based on the human herd instinct. What is good for the group is good. That is why in war the enemy is dehumanized, placed outside the group and that is why vegetarians emphasize the relatedness of humans and animals. We are all animals. People who eat animals usually make a bigger distinction between humans and animals.

If we dehumanize vampires, and they dehumanize themselves, good and evil are no longer relevant for our instincts and we can just eradicate them as pests, dangerous predators or whatever.

That is exactly why they dehumanize themselves, to make the killing of humans easier. But they had a human youth, they can reproduce with humans and they have some very human emotions. You can see them as highly specialized warlocks if you want but then the white council has to start a war and they have enough on their plate.

This is all about how relative good and evil are and how important your point of view is. But in the Dresdenverse good and evil are not relative. Black and white does exist. And we do have a standard and Michael described evil ultimately as when you stopped caring.

Lara stopped caring about anybody except her siblings. She is evil by dresdenverse standards. She made Her choice when she made her first kill and she showed no remorse at all, she indulges in it.

That is the standard in the dresdenverse. She is on the southbound train.

In real life we would probably still see them as human because biologically they are. We would lock them up as multiple rapists and killers and then at some point their hunger would eat them. Or we would lock them up as not accountable but dangerous In special institutions and then at some point the hunger would eat them.

[Bad Alias]

But in the Dresdenverse good and evil are not relative. Black and white does exist. And we do have a standard and Michael described evil ultimately as when you stopped caring.

But we also have Shiro telling Harry, I think in his letter, that Harry has a harder path because he lives in the grey.

[Arjan]

But we also have Shiro telling Harry, I think in his letter, that Harry has a harder path because he lives in the grey.

He walks in a world full of grays but black and white do exist. It is just harder to find your way.

[Bad Alias]

So it's useful to be able to distinguish black, white, and the various shades of gray. The better to not get lost. There's a reason the warden's wear grey cloaks. It always reminds me of the Grey Council in Babylon 5. For those not familiar: https://babylon5.fandom.com/wiki/Grey_Council. The part that reminds me is their invocation. "I am Grey. I stand between the candle and the star. We are Grey. We stand between the darkness and the light." Especially that last sentence. That's basically what the Wardens do. We have the White Council and the practitioners of Black magic. They are the Grey, standing between and guarding the White.

As long as we're talking about grey and wizards, I always liked the name Gandalf the Grey better than Gandalf the White.

And back to the OP, is the FBI hounding Dresden? They're surveilling Justine, sure. Investigating the White Court and a explosions at that weird apartment complex seem like pretty legitimate things for them to do. Local government corruption and explosions are things the Feds are always interested in.

[Mira]

But we also have Shiro telling Harry, I think in his letter, that Harry has a harder path because he lives in the grey.

He is telling Harry that because as a Knight of the Cross, the light, it is pretty clear cut, who they are fighting and why.  The Knights of the Cross's foes are the holders of the coins of the Fallen, the dark.. Where in Harry's world things aren't so clear cut.  He loves Thomas as his brother.  Thomas has saved his life and has done a lot of good, but he has caused a lot of pain also, hence his screams in his cell as he feels the pain he has inflicted on others.  I think Marcone is a better case for the subject of shades of grey, on many levels he is a bad man, but there is that corner of him that feels guilt over what happened to that little girl.  He is the one at the moment who is trying to rally everyone together to save the city, yet once saved, if he survives, he will go back to ruling his underworld of corruption.

In real life we would probably still see them as human because biologically they are. We would lock them up as multiple rapists and killers and then at some point their hunger would eat them. Or we would lock them up as not accountable but dangerous In special institutions and then at some point the hunger would eat them.

But they do not see themselves as evil, they do what they do to survive, it's their nature.  Would you call a cat evil because it kills and sometimes eats beautiful birds?  That's the grey area, there are White Court Vamps that are clearly evil, Lord Raith qualifies.. However Harry made the judgement that Lara runs more to the grey side of things, capable of doing evil, but less so, so he helped her to overthrow her father.

[Arjan]

He is telling Harry that because as a Knight of the Cross, the light, it is pretty clear cut, who they are fighting and why.  The Knights of the Cross's foes are the holders of the coins of the Fallen, the dark.. Where in Harry's world things aren't so clear cut.  He loves Thomas as his brother.  Thomas has saved his life and has done a lot of good, but he has caused a lot of pain also, hence his screams in his cell as he feels the pain he has inflicted on others.  I think Marcone is a better case for the subject of shades of grey, on many levels he is a bad man, but there is that corner of him that feels guilt over what happened to that little girl.  He is the one at the moment who is trying to rally everyone together to save the city, yet once saved, if he survives, he will go back to ruling his underworld of corruption.

Working with a lesser evil can be necessary in real life but the distinction between good and evil in the dresdenverse is a rather principled thing. Marcone is evil. That shouldn’t stop Harry from working with him for the greater good but he is still evil.

But they do not see themselves as evil,

So what? Very few evil people see themselves as evil.

they do what they do to survive, it's their nature.  Would you call a cat evil because it kills and sometimes eats beautiful birds? 

White court vampires are intelligent. They and react to sticks and carrots. They are either creatures that can behave themselves and can be punished for breaking laws or they are dangerous creatures that have to be controlled. Cure, punish or destroy, that would be the question.

Not let them kill humans because they can not help it.

If they existed in real life of course. In the dresdenverse they are ignored because of the masquerade.
[/quote]
That's the grey area, there are White Court Vamps that are clearly evil, Lord Raith qualifies.. However Harry made the judgement that Lara runs more to the grey side of things, capable of doing evil, but less so, so he helped her to overthrow her father.
[/quote]
The morality of Lara was not part of his motivation, he knows Lara is evil but her father was the evil that at that moment was killing his brother and he had killed his mother. Lara was the evil he could work with and as Lara discovered the evil he could manipulate to be his cats pawn.

[Mira]

The morality of Lara was not part of his motivation, he knows Lara is evil but her father was the evil that at that moment was killing his brother and he had killed his mother. Lara was the evil he could work with and as Lara discovered the evil he could manipulate to be his cats pawn.

Which is the grey area..  Marcone is evil, but he does things that are not always evil, he has grey areas that can be worked with, same applies to Lara.  And no, remember the end of Turn Coat at the Zoo the conversation Harry was having with Thomas about humans as food/prey/kine?  They don't see that behavior as evil, anymore than a lion does.  However they understand that the rest of us do see it as evil so they moderate their behavior to survive.

[Arjan]

Which is the grey area..  Marcone is evil, but he does things that are not always evil, he has grey areas that can be worked with, same applies to Lara.  And no, remember the end of Turn Coat at the Zoo the conversation Harry was having with Thomas about humans as food/prey/kine?  They don't see that behavior as evil, anymore than a lion does.  However they understand that the rest of us do see it as evil so they moderate their behavior to survive.

There is good evidence that not even Nicodemus sees his own behavior as evil, Deirdre certainly did not. It doesn’t matter. They are evil.

How they deluded themselves does not stop them being evil in the dresdenverse.

[Mira]

There is good evidence that not even Nicodemus sees his own behavior as evil, Deirdre certainly did not. It doesn’t matter. They are evil.

How they deluded themselves does not stop them being evil in the dresdenverse.

True, but it effects how they behave, that is my point.  It is hard to get Lara or Nic to reform their ways if they do not see that they are wrong, even evil.  They will modify their behavior to some degree to exist successfully in society, but it doesn't make them less evil.  They might even call themselves a necessary evil that one has to get along with, that is the gray area and can be a difficult judgement call to make.  Like that moment on the beach when Harry pressed Thomas about being a father, for an instant Thomas transformed into something dangerous even evil, then changed back to Thomas.  For that instant Harry feared his brother, something I don't ever remember him doing even at the end of Turn Coat when Shaggy had forever changed how Thomas viewed the world.

[ClintACK]

So what? Very few evil people see themselves as evil.

Interestingly Goodman Grey

(click to show/hide)

does see himself as evil -- the "greater" evil even. Which makes him seem less evil.

[Snark Knight]

Cure, punish or destroy, that would be the question.
Not let them kill humans because they can not help it.

If the masquerade falls entirely, it's gonna be a bad day for Malvora (who usually kill) and Skavis (who must).

Raith doesn't have to kill though. Even at his lowest and most inhuman point, Thomas was saying it's unnecessary, and wanted to promote "more responsible" nonlethal feeding from within the House political system. They can easily survive on "small bites" spread out enough not to do irrecoverable harm to anyone, and going public would leave them even less short of willing partners.

[Arjan]

If the masquerade falls entirely, it's gonna be a bad day for Malvora (who usually kill) and Skavis (who must).

Raith doesn't have to kill though. Even at his lowest and most inhuman point, Thomas was saying it's unnecessary, and wanted to promote "more responsible" nonlethal feeding from within the House political system. They can easily survive on "small bites" spread out enough not to do irrecoverable harm to anyone, and going public would leave them even less short of willing partners.

They have to rape. And they have to kill a human to become one.

[CrusherJen]

Um, no, they don't. Thomas survived as a hairdresser, taking small bites of energy as he styled his clients' hair, and they weren't harmed by it. (In fact, they enjoyed it. So it's not too absurd to think that people would volunteer for such an experience, if it was ensured that they wouldn't die in the process.)

And it's been established that White vamps are born with their demon, and their first feeding doesn't have to be lethal. (Although if Irwin Pounder hadn't been the scion of a Bigfoot, he might not have survived his encounter with Connie, so that may be an exception.) If a young White vamp's first sexual experience is based in True Love, there's a chance their demon will die, and they become human, as Inara Raith hopefully did. It's the Reds who must kill to become a fully-fledged vampire, not the Whites.

[Arjan]

Um, no, they don't. Thomas survived as a hairdresser, taking small bites of energy as he styled his clients' hair, and they weren't harmed by it. (In fact, they enjoyed it. So it's not too absurd to think that people would volunteer for such an experience, if it was ensured that they wouldn't die in the process.)

And it's been established that White vamps are born with their demon, and their first feeding doesn't have to be lethal. (Although if Irwin Pounder hadn't been the scion of a Bigfoot, he might not have survived his encounter with Connie, so that may be an exception.) If a young White vamp's first sexual experience is based in True Love, there's a chance their demon will die, and they become human, as Inara Raith hopefully did. It's the Reds who must kill to become a fully-fledged vampire, not the Whites.

Only under very special circumstances that are not easily repeatable.

The hairdresser thing is still highly dubious, stealing life energy and mentally manipulating for your cattle to come back all the time and I do not think it would be a long term solution for most white court vampires, Thomas could not keep it up and he was motivated.

The exceptions are simply not apliccable on a large enough scale but they do point to the white court being evil.