Author Topic: Elemental Chaos  (Read 7380 times)

Offline Snark Knight

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Re: Elemental Chaos
« Reply #15 on: September 12, 2020, 03:05:48 AM »
I'm wondering if it's actually "just" a really strong entropy curse and the idea that it's unavoidable is a product of the Knights' relatively limited knowledge base (like the idea that there's no way to get a Shadow out of your head other than accepting the Coin or giving up magic). If Harry as of DM can build wards that keep it out of his apartment, then a really skilled wizard might be able to redirect it (like Harry did with the Outsider-powered entropy curse in BR).

I'm not actually convinced that the Denarian entropy curse is particularly more formidable than the one in BR sponsored by a Walker. The curse in DM didn't seem all *that* badass - the attempted strike before getting behind the wards was dangerous, but avoidable even exhausted and battered. It's primarily dangerous because it keeps trying if the first hit doesn't succeed, not because it hits overwhelmingly hard. The Walker's curse hits like a truck, but if it's avoided or redirected, that's it until the summoner can set up to cast it again.

How dangerous an entropy curse is seems to be a product both of the power of the sponsor and how competent the mortal invoking it is, based on Harry's description of the difference in the BR curse when Trixie was engineering stupid pratfall deaths vs someone competent 'driving'. I think the Denarians would be right at the top of the efficiency ladder, if the Fallen isn't outright taking care of that for them once a target is named. But in terms of the sponsor, a Walker is probably a bigger engine than a Fallen other than Lucifer himself.

Now, Harry probably also had an advantage in redirecting the Walker's curse to kill that black court minion by way of being starborn, but he also seemed confident in his ability to prepare a reflection spell with advance warning even though he didn't know about his advantage. Now that he has soulfire, the same for the Fallen's curse is probably feasible.

The Knights just seem to probably be overestimating it from dangerous to autokill because they don't know any countermagic other than to jump on the grenade.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2020, 03:23:13 AM by Snark Knight »

Offline Mira

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Re: Elemental Chaos
« Reply #16 on: September 12, 2020, 04:49:29 AM »
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I'm wondering if it's actually "just" a really strong entropy curse and the idea that it's unavoidable is a product of the Knights' relatively limited knowledge base (like the idea that there's no way to get a Shadow out of your head other than accepting the Coin or giving up magic). If Harry as of DM can build wards that keep it out of his apartment, then a really skilled wizard might be able to redirect it (like Harry did with the Outsider-powered entropy curse in BR).

As far as the Shadow in one's head goes, it was as stated, accept the coin or give up magic, though I doubt that the last would have done the trick.  Harry, instead changed the Shadow, not intentionally but merely by who he is.  It wasn't just by giving Lasciel's Shadow a different name, it was the how and why he did things, his total stubbornness and insistence on doing things his way.  It had never been done before and it is a big deal, that is why he was rewarded with Soul Fire.  Perhaps it could only have been done by a star born?
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I'm not actually convinced that the Denarian entropy curse is particularly more formidable than the one in BR sponsored by a Walker. The curse in DM didn't seem all *that* badass - the attempted strike before getting behind the wards was dangerous, but avoidable even exhausted and battered. It's primarily dangerous because it keeps trying if the first hit doesn't succeed, not because it hits overwhelmingly hard. The Walker's curse hits like a truck, but if it's avoided or redirected, that's it until the summoner can set up to cast it again.

The curse itself might not seem all that badass, but it was turbocharged by the Shroud.  The Knights only had the first part of the prophesy, Shiro taking Harry's place saved Harry, but to save everyone else, Harry had to get the Shroud away from Nic because he was using it to eventually give everyone the plague.

Offline vultur

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Re: Elemental Chaos
« Reply #17 on: September 12, 2020, 12:45:40 PM »
I'm not actually convinced that the Denarian entropy curse is particularly more formidable than the one in BR sponsored by a Walker. The curse in DM didn't seem all *that* badass - the attempted strike before getting behind the wards was dangerous, but avoidable even exhausted and battered. It's primarily dangerous because it keeps trying if the first hit doesn't succeed, not because it hits overwhelmingly hard. The Walker's curse hits like a truck, but if it's avoided or redirected, that's it until the summoner can set up to cast it again.

That's a good point. I was thinking that it had to be more powerful because Harry could redirect the one in BR, but maybe not.

I was figuring it kept trying because it hadn't killed anyone, but if redirected it would be 'used up' since it actually killed someone (even though it was the wrong victim). But yeah, maybe there's more to it than that... especially since, as you point out, Nic is way more competent than the cult in BR.

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The Knights just seem to probably be overestimating it from dangerous to autokill because they don't know any countermagic other than to jump on the grenade.

Yeah that's kind of what I was wondering.

The curse itself might not seem all that badass, but it was turbocharged by the Shroud. 

Oh sure, with the Shroud it's a whole other issue. I'm talking about when Shiro says the Noose allows Nicodemus to mandate "a death that cannot be avoided". There's just got to be some way to avoid/block/flat out resist it if you're powerful enough.

Now maybe it only works on mortals, keeping him from killing Uriel with it or anything totally ridiculous like that.

But the fact that Harry's wards can block it does mean it's limited; somebody good enough ought to be able to outright counterspell it, even if that level's above any current mortal wizard. (I'm sure Odin or Mab could.)

Offline Mira

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Re: Elemental Chaos
« Reply #18 on: September 12, 2020, 02:50:36 PM »
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Oh sure, with the Shroud it's a whole other issue. I'm talking about when Shiro says the Noose allows Nicodemus to mandate "a death that cannot be avoided". There's just got to be some way to avoid/block/flat out resist it if you're powerful enough.

I don't think that is what he meant, I think he merely meant that the noose keeps Nic alive, it doesn't have anything to do with mandating power over others.  That is why when he "surrendered" himself to Murphy, he removed the noose, he then could be killed.  That was too much temptation for her to render "justice" as she saw it, so she attempted to execute him, thus breaking the Sword.  Harry is the only one who has actually gotten close enough to him to physically grab the noose and in Small Favor came very close to killing him.

Offline Avernite

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Re: Elemental Chaos
« Reply #19 on: September 12, 2020, 03:12:14 PM »
I'm actually thinking the Noose may be a kind of life-battery; twisted, but still a battery.

So I'm thinking the curse may be a kind of 'life for a life' and the only way to abuse it is to find someone to take the life off to extend your own. Nic has found the way to use it to steal rather than trade lives, and the Knights/Harry have no idea how to counter it, but maybe understanding it steals life rather than cursing could help gain insight?

Offline Mira

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Re: Elemental Chaos
« Reply #20 on: September 12, 2020, 04:07:57 PM »
I'm actually thinking the Noose may be a kind of life-battery; twisted, but still a battery.

So I'm thinking the curse may be a kind of 'life for a life' and the only way to abuse it is to find someone to take the life off to extend your own. Nic has found the way to use it to steal rather than trade lives, and the Knights/Harry have no idea how to counter it, but maybe understanding it steals life rather than cursing could help gain insight?

I've always thought that the noose had something to do with Judas.  Though I realize that that has been refuted, but I am not sure if it was Jim or not.  The noose itself can mean either an execution or suicide, but why?  That is the question, did Nic accept the coin to save himself from execution?  Or did he do something so terrible that he wanted to kill himself?  Or perhaps it does have something to do with Judas, that it was actually Nic who betrayed Jesus, so the noose that Judas hung himself with is around Nic's neck because he tricked Judas into thinking he was the blame?  I know it isn't even high grade tin foil..

Offline ClintACK

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Re: Elemental Chaos
« Reply #21 on: September 12, 2020, 04:45:58 PM »
The noose's connection to Judas has been refuted? I missed that. I thought that was explicitly confirmed in the text in Death Masks, although Michael just says that they believe it to be the one Judas used.

Offline Mira

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Re: Elemental Chaos
« Reply #22 on: September 12, 2020, 06:02:23 PM »
The noose's connection to Judas has been refuted? I missed that. I thought that was explicitly confirmed in the text in Death Masks, although Michael just says that they believe it to be the one Judas used.

I remember reading that here that it wasn't years ago, so I thought it was.  However the connection is either too obvious to be true, or it is true and we have yet to get the full story.

Offline Snark Knight

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Re: Elemental Chaos
« Reply #23 on: September 12, 2020, 10:49:59 PM »
The curse itself might not seem all that badass, but it was turbocharged by the Shroud.  The Knights only had the first part of the prophesy, Shiro taking Harry's place saved Harry, but to save everyone else, Harry had to get the Shroud away from Nic because he was using it to eventually give everyone the plague.

The plague curse is different from the Barrabus curse. The entropy curse tried to drop a live electrical wire on Harry before he and Susan got behind the wards.

Offline Mira

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Re: Elemental Chaos
« Reply #24 on: September 12, 2020, 11:18:30 PM »
The plague curse is different from the Barrabus curse. The entropy curse tried to drop a live electrical wire on Harry before he and Susan got behind the wards.

 Yeah, but that was all about stopping Harry, because only he could get the Shroud.

Offline vultur

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Re: Elemental Chaos
« Reply #25 on: September 12, 2020, 11:43:46 PM »
Or perhaps it does have something to do with Judas, that it was actually Nic who betrayed Jesus, so the noose that Judas hung himself with is around Nic's neck because he tricked Judas into thinking he was the blame?  I know it isn't even high grade tin foil..

I've wondered before if Nic might *be* Judas... I rather doubt "Nicodemus Archleone" is his real name, Archleone doesn't sound right for that part of the world at that time.

Offline ClintACK

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Re: Elemental Chaos
« Reply #26 on: September 13, 2020, 01:13:52 PM »
I've wondered before if Nic might *be* Judas... I rather doubt "Nicodemus Archleone" is his real name, Archleone doesn't sound right for that part of the world at that time.

Yeah. Victory-of-the-People Great-Lion doesn't much sound like a real name. But there is a Nicodemus in the Gospel of John who helps Joseph of Arimathea with Jesus's burial. So there's a Nicodemus who helped use the Shroud to wrap Jesus and was there with the guy who caught Jesus's blood in the Grail, and so on...

Offline Avernite

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Re: Elemental Chaos
« Reply #27 on: September 13, 2020, 04:56:15 PM »
I've wondered before if Nic might *be* Judas... I rather doubt "Nicodemus Archleone" is his real name, Archleone doesn't sound right for that part of the world at that time.
Didn't the Archive describe real details of his life? Or was that only Tessa?

Offline Mira

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Re: Elemental Chaos
« Reply #28 on: September 13, 2020, 05:08:35 PM »
I've wondered before if Nic might *be* Judas... I rather doubt "Nicodemus Archleone" is his real name, Archleone doesn't sound right for that part of the world at that time.

Yeah, that has been my guess about him from the first..  As I said, I also remember reading here that he isn't, but it has been so long ago I cannot remember if that was a WOJ or not.

Offline The_Sibelis

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Re: Elemental Chaos
« Reply #29 on: September 13, 2020, 06:15:17 PM »
I think he's doubting Thomas, who often gets confabulated with Judas. No particular reason that I can recall atm🤔