Nightmares

[Mira]

Molly's the oldest, though. She was conceived (and maybe born) while the magic was still fading. The other kids would have the same genetics, but much less pre-natal exposure.

I think there's zero chance of the other kids "ignoring" magic -- after almost losing Molly in an incredibly traumatic episode that saw Charity throwing on chainmail and marching to the heart of winter, Michael and Charity will be watching the other kids for any sign. (Heck, I'd expect that *Molly* has been watching to other kids for any sign, and there's no chance she'd miss it.)

Is there?  I think it is possible that some could chose to ignore it.  If they bought into their mother's views on magic for example, they might.  Knowing what happened to Molly when she abused it, they might.  If magic talent is genetic, it isn't going to leave her genes even if magic itself fades in the mother.  Think of it like a disease that is genetically passed, now the disease itself might be treatable even cured, but the genes that cause it in the first place don't go away, they are still passed on.

What I find interesting is I went back to reread the bit in Changes when Harry kills Susan triggering the nightmares and other events.  What is interesting is Harry's mind is totally blanked out for two minutes during all of this.  So simply his brain shutting down to protect him from the full horror of what he had just done?  Or something else going on?

[ClintACK]

Ah. You don't mean "ignore" like not notice or be in denial about it. You mean that some of the other Carpenter kids might have inherited magical potential, realized it, and then made the conscious choice not to develop it.

That's plausible, I guess.

Re: Chichen Itza blackout -- Trauma is definitely plausible. Remember that we're not reading a third-person-omniscient account of events. This is Harry writing down what happened, telling the story as he remembers it.

Or it could be something else. Hard to know what, though. Perhaps he dug so deeply into the Winter Mantle to fight off the Red King's Will attack that he wasn't himself at all for a brief time. (After, Eb says, "Hell of a hard thing to do." and he responds, "It wasn't hard. Just cold.") Remember that he was acting on a bargain he made with Mab -- if he couldn't bring himself to do the deed, to cut out Susan's heart, it's possible that the Bargain took over his free will and made him do it. He bargained for the power and the time to save his daughter, and he believed that this was the only way to do it.

[Mira]

Ah. You don't mean "ignore" like not notice or be in denial about it. You mean that some of the other Carpenter kids might have inherited magical potential, realized it, and then made the conscious choice not to develop it.

Yeah, sorry I wasn't clearer on that, but especially after the problems with Molly if Charity did come clean about it with the rest of her children.  You can bet she told them that her talent faded with lack of use.  However as I write that, I am wondering, did she ever put that to the test?  She might be assuming something that isn't true at all.

Or it could be something else. Hard to know what, though. Perhaps he dug so deeply into the Winter Mantle to fight off the Red King's Will attack that he wasn't himself at all for a brief time. (After, Eb says, "Hell of a hard thing to do." and he responds, "It wasn't hard. Just cold.") Remember that he was acting on a bargain he made with Mab -- if he couldn't bring himself to do the deed, to cut out Susan's heart, it's possible that the Bargain took over his free will and made him do it. He bargained for the power and the time to save his daughter, and he believed that this was the only way to do it.

I doubt that, his free will remained, and I think he cut her throat not cut out her heart.  He did believe it was the only way to save his daughter, but it was still his choice to do it.  Also there was the realization possibly later rationalization that Susab was no longer human when he did it.  If she was, the spell reversal wouldn't have worked.

page 419 Changes, Susan had killed Martin and is in the process of changing.  Harry tells her that the Red King wanted to kill Maggie because he death would kill him and Eb, then tells her that she is the youngest vamp and her death can kill them all.  Actually it becomes Susan's choice in a way.

Susan looked back at me, her eyes streaming her last tears.  "Harry, help me," she whispered.  "Save her.  Please."
Everything in me screamed no.  That this was not fair.  That I should not have to do this.
But. . . I had no choice.

Not his choice because he was being compelled to do it by the Winter Mantle, but because in order to save little Maggie, himself, and Eb, he had no other choice than to cut Susan, now the youngest vampire's throat.

[The_Sibelis]

Woj is Harry doesn't remember because his mind does not want to remember what happened.

[Mira]

Woj is Harry doesn't remember because his mind does not want to remember what happened.

Which makes sense, this is how the brain protects itself from a major trauma.  Not just cutting her throat, which apparently he hasn't forgotten, but perhaps her full transformation to vampire, then her death, which he doesn't seem to remember.

[vultur]

Is there?  I think it is possible that some could chose to ignore it. 

There's a WOJ that they didn't inherit magic specifically because Charity stopped using her talent, though.

[vultur]

@vulture. Oh but that's exactly what Uriel implied when he says"I just made you more of what you already are".

I don't think that's really what Uriel means. I think he's speaking more metaphysically, about Soulfire being powered by your soul and therefore by What You Really Are on the deepest level... it's all part of the Free Will/Choice shaping your soul aspect of things that the Heaven/Hell conflict is focused on.

I'm not sure hellfire counts the same as he didn't keep it, merely gained access to it, though I imagine as two sides of the same coin it's not unfeasible. So I see that as unlocking latent potential already there..

Bob describes the Hellfire thing as being powered by a bit of Lasciel's energy in Harry's head, forming the Lash shadow (when they're discussing Lash's "death" at the end of WN). And the description of Bonea's origin also seems pretty clear that there was actually part of Lasciel's energy/essence in Harry's head.

I think the Winter Mantle is basically the same thing, just with more power and less consciousness (it has emotional effects but can't converse like Lash).

[The_Sibelis]

I don't think that's really what Uriel means. I think he's speaking more metaphysically, about Soulfire being powered by your soul and therefore by What You Really Are on the deepest level...

🤔 that does not compute.. but if soul is What You Really Are, than the similarities are magnified by that. Angels are All soul, if soul is what you really are,  then are you not an angel?

[Mira]

🤔 that does not compute.. but if soul is What You Really Are, than the similarities are magnified by that. Angels are All soul, if soul is what you really are,  then are you not an angel?

There is a theory I believe that says humans are very like angels except for the free will.

There's a WOJ that they didn't inherit magic specifically because Charity stopped using her talent, though.

That doesn't make sense on a scientific level to begin with.  Also by that logic Molly shouldn't have any talent either.

[vultur]

🤔 that does not compute..

I might not have phrased that right.

What I meant is that it's not "Soulfire doesn't give you any capabilities you didn't already have", but more like "Magic is already based on who you fundamentally are, even more than normal choices; using Soulfire takes that to an even greater degree".

Angels are All soul, if soul is what you really are,  then are you not an angel?

Uriel says "You are a soul, you have a body" (which is a C. S. Lewis quote, IIRC).

Angels are only a soul, they don't even have bodies (as I understand it, Uriel's human form in SG was created for that special case, or transformed from his normal soul-stuff existence, or whatever).

That doesn't make sense on a scientific level to begin with.

Not if the inheritance of magic is more environmental than genetic.

  Also by that logic Molly shouldn't have any talent either.

WOJ on this:
https://wordof.jim-butcher.com/index.php/word-of-jim-woj-compilation/woj-on-magic-in-the-dresden-files-part-2/

what’s critical to this particular equation is the fact that Charity was consciously and deliberately neglecting her talent–which hadn’t been all THAT hot to begin with.  She went through the time she got engaged to Michael, all the way through Molly’s term, all the intervening time, etc, before she got to Daniel.  It had been more than two, maybe three years since she’d done anything with her magic by the time Daniel was conceived.

and

Charity was, essentially, stacking up environmental factors against her unborn children developing their genetic propensity for magic into a real, tangible gift to the point where the chances of them actually doing it were negligible.

This is a case where the environmental influence overwhelms the genetic one.

The occasional patrilineal inheritance, eg Eb -> Maggie Sr, is presumably one where the prenatal environment was less important since Eb is an extremely strong talent so it would take much more to drop it "below threshold".

[Mira]

Not if the inheritance of magic is more environmental than genetic.

That doesn't work in the case of Molly verses her siblings because I doubt that Charity used any magic after she married Micheal.  Environmental would imply that Charity continued to use magic up until and after Molly's birth, she didn't.

This is a case where the environmental influence overwhelms the genetic one.

The occasional patrilineal inheritance, eg Eb -> Maggie Sr, is presumably one where the prenatal environment was less important since Eb is an extremely strong talent so it would take much more to drop it "below threshold".

Again, that doesn't work.  I won't go into Margaret since we have little to no information as to what her childhood was like until her talent awoke.  However we do have Harry as an example, Margaret died when he was born, Malcolm had no magical talent, earned a living using illusion and slight of hand to entertain.  He dies, Harry spends time in an orphanage and foster homes, no magical talent exposure until his talent awakens on it's own, no environmental factors.  There is also the example of Thomas, his mother maintained her talent during his first six or eight years until she left him for Malcolm.. Lord Raith has some talent as well I think or under some powerful influence aside from his Hunger, yet Thomas has very minor talent, actually almost none.

[vultur]

That doesn't work in the case of Molly verses her siblings because I doubt that Charity used any magic after she married Micheal.  Environmental would imply that Charity continued to use magic up until and after Molly's birth, she didn't.

I don't think that is compatible with the WOJ I linked/quoted above, though. That really does make it sound like time since Charity stopped using magic is the critical difference between Molly and the others.

He dies, Harry spends time in an orphanage and foster homes, no magical talent exposure until his talent awakens on it's own, no environmental factors.

I'm talking about prenatal environment - whether one's mother had the biological effects of magic going on (at the time of the pregnancy).

Per WOJ Charity will have lost the extended lifespan... but presumably the improved healing and stuff don't go away instantly. It probably takes a couple of years to fade.

Sure magic doesn't manifest immediately at birth, but I think that's just a maturity thing.

yet Thomas has very minor talent, actually almost none.

There's a WoJ that White Court don't get as strong magically as regular human wizards, so I think there is some interference from the vampire/Hunger side.

Also, I think you're understating what Thomas has. "Almost none" doesn't seem accurate; from what he says in Backup he hasn't put all that much time and effort into developing it. He seems to imply that training/time/effort is the major difference (comparing it to a six-month course vs a graduate degree).

I'm sure his talent is less strong than Harry's (very exceptional) one, probably not full Council level even if he really developed it, but it's way more than what a normal human has.

[Mira]

I don't think that is compatible with the WOJ I linked/quoted above, though. That really does make it sound like time since Charity stopped using magic is the critical difference between Molly and the others.

But if she stopped when she married or just before during courtship, I see no difference.

I'm talking about prenatal environment - whether one's mother had the biological effects of magic going on (at the time of the pregnancy).

Then Thomas should have as much as or even more talent than Harry, and he doesn't.  I also doubt that Charity was practicing any magic while she was pregnant with Molly.

Per WOJ Charity will have lost the extended lifespan... but presumably the improved healing and stuff don't go away instantly. It probably takes a couple of years to fade.

However that doesn't explain Molly having talent and not the others.  I think they all have it, but not being as rebellious as Molly or buying perhaps more into their mother's doctrine since she married, they have chosen not to use it.  Perhaps if it isn't used when it manifests itself, it goes away?  We will have to wait and see as little Harry gets a bit older.

lso, I think you're understating what Thomas has. "Almost none" doesn't seem accurate; from what he says in Backup he hasn't put all that much time and effort into developing it. He seems to imply that training/time/effort is the major difference (comparing it to a six-month course vs a graduate degree).

It's been a while since I read Backup, but if I remember correctly Thomas said that all humans are capable of doing some elementary magic if they are taught how, he was doing a tracking spell.  Not unlike Butters who was able to make a magic circle under Harry's instruction.

I'm sure his talent is less strong than Harry's (very exceptional) one, probably not full Council level even if he really developed it, but it's way more than what a normal human has.

That is debatable, Thomas has the same genetic background as Harry, Margaret and Eb, so he should potentially be as talented and as strong as Harry.  Now you could be right that the Hunger blocks some of that, but that doesn't make a whole lot of sense either.

[vultur]

However that doesn't explain Molly having talent and not the others.

Sure it could... if it takes say 3 years to fade after you stop using magic, and Michael/Charity were dating for a year and engaged for a year...

Anyway what else could that WoJ mean?

Not unlike Butters who was able to make a magic circle under Harry's instruction.

I think any mortal can do that, it doesn't require either talent or skill in manipulating magic energy.

Harry says learning magic without the Sight is like someone who's blind learning to paint. A quick explanation wouldn't cut it.

Now you could be right that the Hunger blocks some of that, but that doesn't make a whole lot of sense either.

That seems to be the implication of the WoJ that White Court magic doesn't get as strong as human, but they can do some impressive things by mixing magic with their Hunger.

I don't see why it shouldn't make sense - the Hunger is a spiritual symbiote or parasite basically, why shouldn't it affect how a potential Whampire's magical potential develops?