Nightmares

[Yuillegan]

The theme of nightmares is curious.

When Harry killed the Red Court it caused mass bad dreams for any man or women with even a smidge of talent. I suspect even Agent Tilly had nightmares. Particularly pregnant or new mothers had it the worst.

All the dreams had the same theme: dead children. The world in flames. Terror and destruction sweeping across the globe in an unstoppable wave. Destruction of anything like order or civilisation.

And somewhere, I can't remember how, the nightmares are linked to the Fomor. Does anyone know?

And then of course there is the Nightmare himself, Leonid Kravos' uber-ghost. But who would have given Kravos the knowledge? And it was a particularly curious magic to use. Mavra did seem involved in that story. Not only that, but Kravos (and perhaps his ghost...perhaps not though) was infected by Nemesis.

The theme of the nightmares seems to fit into the plans of the Fomor too.

[The_Sibelis]

Harry was also getting nightmares before mouse arrived iirc. Lilith has aspects of dreams and nightmares...
It's becoming increasingly obvious one of the primary targets of Nemesis and friends is humanity itself, Ethniu actually acts pretty much as I predicted for Nemesis, someone with a chip on their shoulder for humanity taking up the power and the balance..
The night of bad dreams was a Mandela effect I think, Harry explains there's more magic in a babies laugh than in his biggest firestorm, combine that kind of fact with the idea harry is descendant of Merlin directly and Merlin was the start of Mortal Wizardy, and the red court tried to target not just practitioners, but mortal magic itself. If magic failed us, then all those whose lives were created and ran on magic would die, the unborn children..

[vultur]

I think the nightmares are just the result of a huge amount of dark energy suddenly being released into the world.

The super-powered spell itself, plus... the Red King/Lords of Outer Night don't seem to have had Mantles that passed on. But as Mother Summer points out in SK, that energy can't just disappear. So all their 'godlike' power would presumably have been released into the world.

The connection with the Fomor might just be that the Fomor started acting right then, at the fall of the Red Court... plus the nightmares might be a bit "precognitive", hinting at future disaster in which the Fomor are presumably involved. But I don't think the Fomor had anything to do with causing it.

combine that kind of fact with the idea harry is descendant of Merlin directly and Merlin was the start of Mortal Wizardy

I don't think either of these is known. There's a line of teaching/apprenticeship going from Merlin to Harry through Eb; that doesn't mean Eb (and therefore Harry) is biologically descended from Merlin.

And Merlin founded (or perhaps re-founded, given that it was around in classical times) the White Council and wrote the Laws of Magic - but nothing's ever suggested that he created wizardry itself. Mortal magic seems to be just a natural function of humanity in the DV... lots of people have a trace of talent, a few have more, 1 in a million or so are Council level.

And there were pre-Council organizations of wizards and practitioners in other parts of the world back when the WC was just Europe/the Mediterranean. I don't think Merlin was that central.

I mean with time travel I guess he could have founded everything - but it's never been suggested.

[Yuillegan]

I remember reading somewhere that they had something to do with it. But I can't for the life of me find it, so perhaps I am mistaken.

It's always sort-of been assumed that the release of dark magic from the spell caused it. But I am not so sure. Perhaps the act of killing the Red Court massively moved the universe Harry is in the direction of a certain timeline.

I agree though that Merlin wasn't the start of magical learning. He merely reformed the status quo. It seems that before he did things were very volatile and political and chaotic. He ordered the supernatural world.

[The_Sibelis]

I don't think either of these is known. There's a line of teaching/apprenticeship going from Merlin to Harry through Eb; that doesn't mean Eb (and therefore Harry) is biologically descended from Merlin.

And Merlin founded (or perhaps re-founded, given that it was around in classical times) the White Council and wrote the Laws of Magic - but nothing's ever suggested that he created wizardry itself. Mortal magic seems to be just a natural function of humanity in the DV... lots of people have a trace of talent, a few have more, 1 in a million or so are Council level.

The idea is well known, hence combining fact with idea, Harry's decendancy from Merlin is well discussed here and elsewhere.. and if you look at magical mythos, it always starts with one person. Odin receiving the knowledge of runes, Horus doing the same from his mother, ect. From there you simply have to remember everything is cyclic in the DF, and mortals had to have gotten Wizardy from somewhere and you start looking at what appears to be the oldest cycle... And you come up with Merlin. Course Merlin isn't really Merlin, he's just a place holder for the original version.
You can find good clues in the origins of the Sidhe, the Celtic Druids could command the elements themselves but could not mess with fate, they can conjure by the avatars of the elements, things like the fae originators.. Wizards on the other hand can indeed effect fate, but they should not.

[vultur]

The idea is well known, hence combining fact with idea, Harry's decendancy from Merlin is well discussed here and elsewhere.. and if you look at magical mythos, it always starts with one person. Odin receiving the knowledge of runes, Horus doing the same from his mother, ect.

Well, yeah, but if all those pantheons exist in the DV, does that mean multiple origins of magic?

and mortals had to have gotten Wizardy from somewhere

I don't think they really do have to, though. (Unless you're referring to the original evolution/creation of humanity.)

Magical capability seems to be essentially natural to humans in the DV; wizards are different because they have much more talent, but some degree seems to be standard.

It's said in GS or CD that technically anyone could learn magic, but it's way harder without the Sight. And the Alphas don't seem to have been aware of having magical talent before they met Tera West.

So I think it's just as likely that people figured out how to do magic basically on their own, possibly with help from various local spirits and gods (ie maybe Horus taught somebody in Egypt and Odin taught somebody in Scandinavia) but not with one common origin.

Per WOJ the White Council used to be Europe-centric and wizards in other parts of the world have their own distinct histories... so I don't think there was a single origin of magical knowledge.

[The_Sibelis]

Well, yeah, but if all those pantheons exist in the DV, does that mean multiple origins of magic?
I don't think they really do have to, though. (Unless you're referring to the original evolution/creation of humanity.)

Magical capability seems to be essentially natural to humans in the DV; wizards are different because they have much more talent, but some degree seems to be standard.

It's said in GS or CD that technically anyone could learn magic, but it's way harder without the Sight. And the Alphas don't seem to have been aware of having magical talent before they met Tera West.

So I think it's just as likely that people figured out how to do magic basically on their own, possibly with help from various local spirits and gods (ie maybe Horus taught somebody in Egypt and Odin taught somebody in Scandinavia) but not with one common origin.

Per WOJ the White Council used to be Europe-centric and wizards in other parts of the world have their own distinct histories... so I don't think there was a single origin of magical knowledge.

Salic law is the main reason I disagree. It's clearly an inherited property, genetic even(one theory made a good case for magic being part of the mitochondrial system)
Depends on how those pantheons actually mesh together and repeat. An how/when humanity actually evolved with free choice. Listening to Ethniu, for instance, doesn't lead me to believe they always had the capacity they do now. As much pull as they do on Fate and this would also be the event horizon for them gaining mortal magic as we know it.

[Snark Knight]

Salic law is the main reason I disagree. It's clearly an inherited property, genetic even(one theory made a good case for magic being part of the mitochondrial system)

Much as I like the series, if Jim introduces midichlorians, I'm out.

[The_Sibelis]

Much as I like the series, if Jim introduces midichlorians, I'm out.

LMFAO! I mean, at least it would make more sense than for the force. Life is at least the source of Magic. The force is supposed to be in all things..

[vultur]

Salic law is the main reason I disagree. It's clearly an inherited property,

Oh I agree it's inherited. But I think it's "strength of talent" that is inherited, it's not just a yes/no gene.

The things Harry's said about 'anyone could theoretically learn magic but it's vastly harder if you don't have the Sight' makes me think that very few if any people have literally zero talent. It's just that most people aren't aware of it unless they have the Sight or an obvious ability manifests (like Abby's precognition or whatever).

So I think it's more that 'magical talent' is an inherent part of humanity and in any human population you'll get ~1 in a million Council level talents and lots more weaker ones.

And the 'Council level' distinction is artificial, just based on what the White Council's tests are. Carlos even talks about (in WN, I think) that the qualifications might be lowered due to losses in the Vampire War.

genetic even(one theory made a good case for magic being part of the mitochondrial system)

I strongly doubt it. If it were genetic, Charity no longer using magic wouldn't prevent Molly's younger siblings from inheriting the gene.

I think the maternal vs paternal distinction is much more likely a result of exposure to magic in the womb.

And we're told it's "usually" female-line, but if it was mitochondrial it would be 100%. Paternal inheritance does happen sometimes, apparently Eb's wife was a vanilla mortal.

[The_Sibelis]

As I'm sure your aware from discussion of Kings blood. If you go back far enough everyone is related. An I am talking earliest history. Of course everyone has magic, that's the premise behind babies being born 'through' magic. Does not negate the source of method of traversal. Its not genetic alone of course, but it is directly called for across genetics. Molly is pretty easily explained. When she actively used magic it actively made her cells reproduce closer copies, an effect that clearly does not continue when you stop using magic. So her cells were literally suffused with magic when Molly was concieved. What did they say the base number of ppl was to create a while new world? 6 females and 2 males? That still leaves a most direct path back to one of the males.
I believe nothing as far as Eb's wife goes. Jim knew exactly what he was doing when he made Harry's grandfather a wizard AND his mother while also stating magic through Salic law.
An if it's not inherited than the WCV'S actions in WK have absolutely no real value. Tend to think a player in the oblivion war would know better then. Let alone the extended WV's just believing it on a whim. Everything we know of shows 'salic law', and oh 'sometimes it happens another way'. Given we have absolutely no idea what that other people way is it doesn't negate what we know. 'another way' could be as simple as exposure causing genetic mutation in latent genes... Which btw is exactly what's been implied about Molly taking on the Ladies Mantle vs a closer changeling that it should have chosen, per woj. So we actually already have a base for the same thing happening on another clearly genetic line. And... Harry pretty much outright says it about mortals and their hybrids somewhere"those with the blood of the NN". Its all inheritance in the DF, can't think of a single example where someone gets something or has an aspect that's not inherited from somewhere. KotC, scions, changelings, harry taking on DR(which is one of those Merlinian connections well discussed) heck even bigfoot is basically born from dragon's blood per PT, grendelkin? The 'lady' who seduced mortals to make monstrous babies?
What do we have that's /not/ genetic? Even how the person CAN use magic is based upon their physical body.

[vultur]

As I'm sure your aware from discussion of Kings blood. If you go back far enough everyone is related. An I am talking earliest history.

Ah ok, yeah maybe a supernatural ancestor way back at the beginning...

I still think that magical talent is a fundamentally 'human' thing though. I think there is a difference between how the series portrays wizards/magical practitioners vs. scion-types (Changelings, WCVs, Red Court Infected, etc.) who have some sort of 'Choice' mechanic or bifurcated nature.

Molly is pretty easily explained. When she actively used magic it actively made her cells reproduce closer copies, an effect that clearly does not continue when you stop using magic. So her cells were literally suffused with magic when Molly was concieved.

Yeah I think that's probably about right. There probably is a genetic component but active use of magic and the biological effects of it also play a large role.

IMO this is why magic is 'usually' inherited matrilineally but not 'always'. Genetics + prenatal environment are far more likely to push someone above the threshold where their talent manifests obviously, having the Sight, etc. than genetics alone.

But in the really strong lineages like Eb/Harry you don't need both. Charity was a quite weak talent.

An if it's not inherited than the WCV'S actions in WK have absolutely no real value.

Oh, I think it's "inherited" just not entirely "genetic", the mother actually using magic (not just having the talent/genes) seems to be important from the case of the Carpenters.

Its all inheritance in the DF, can't think of a single example where someone gets something or has an aspect that's not inherited from somewhere.

What about transfer of power from supernatural beings to mortals? Lash gives Harry Hellfire, Uriel gives him Soulfire, I'm pretty sure Harry isn't descended from angels or Fallen...

[Mira]

Oh, I think it's "inherited" just not entirely "genetic", the mother actually using magic (not just having the talent/genes) seems to be important from the case of the Carpenters.

Charity swore off her magic though and it faded, however the genes for it remained, and Molly inherited them.  Now it is interesting that so for the rest of the Carpenter kids either didn't inherit the trait or are ignoring the fact that they have talent. 

[The_Sibelis]

@vulture. Oh but that's exactly what Uriel implied when he says"I just made you more of what you already are". I'm not sure hellfire counts the same as he didn't keep it, merely gained access to it, though I imagine as two sides of the same coin it's not unfeasible. So I see that as unlocking latent potential already there.. though exactly how wizards are relative to angels is a mystery still.. they do perform acts of creation and destruction using the very primal forces of the universe, granted on a much smaller scale..

[ClintACK]

Charity swore off her magic though and it faded, however the genes for it remained, and Molly inherited them.  Now it is interesting that so for the rest of the Carpenter kids either didn't inherit the trait or are ignoring the fact that they have talent.

Molly's the oldest, though. She was conceived (and maybe born) while the magic was still fading. The other kids would have the same genetics, but much less pre-natal exposure.

I think there's zero chance of the other kids "ignoring" magic -- after almost losing Molly in an incredibly traumatic episode that saw Charity throwing on chainmail and marching to the heart of winter, Michael and Charity will be watching the other kids for any sign. (Heck, I'd expect that *Molly* has been watching to other kids for any sign, and there's no chance she'd miss it.)