Don't upset the mortals...

[Yuillegan]

Jim has always said, and even in Peace Talks openly discusses, that the supernatural world are very wary to upset the angry frightened mortals because they grab their torch and pitchforks and nukes and might burn everything down.

Except, history shows that while internally the persecution of Witches and Wizards etc. might happen - human nations are unlikely to band together. In point of fact, they often take the opportunity to settle debts, seize power, and get one up on their traditional enemies. And any strategist worth his salt knows that divide and conquer is half the work anyway. Clearly part of Corb and Ethniu's plan at any rate, at least when it comes to the Accorded Nations.

Jim has actually set this up in some ways. Kemmler was largely responsible for both the first and second World Wars. He pits nation against nation and takes advantage in the chaos. I doubt he was the only one. Even historically, many nations used the Wars to get away with things they otherwise might not have.

War is often attractive in that sense too, because it can be incredibly profitable to the winner.

So if Ethniu and even other villains were to upset the mortals, I don't think it would be particularly difficult or hard to imagine that they would play us off against one another ("Here, we will give you the information/power to overcome your rival

• if you attack this country at the same time as us") or ("Do this or die") etc.

Why take us all on when it's so much easier to get us to fight among ourselves? We barely get along within our own nations, let alone as a planet.

Nations and leaders are often bought for much less than what a God or some other such power could offer, and often scared much easier too. The sad truth is that if an enemy attacked planet Earth, if they had any battle sense and did any sort of real recon and intelligence gathering they would take us apart. We just aren't that cohesive.

[TheCuriousFan]

Jim has always said, and even in Peace Talks openly discusses, that the supernatural world are very wary to upset the angry frightened mortals because they grab their torch and pitchforks and nukes and might burn everything down.

Except, history shows that while internally the persecution of Witches and Wizards etc. might happen - human nations are unlikely to band together. In point of fact, they often take the opportunity to settle debts, seize power, and get one up on their traditional enemies. And any strategist worth his salt knows that divide and conquer is half the work anyway. Clearly part of Corb and Ethniu's plan at any rate, at least when it comes to the Accorded Nations.

Jim has actually set this up in some ways. Kemmler was largely responsible for both the first and second World Wars. He pits nation against nation and takes advantage in the chaos. I doubt he was the only one. Even historically, many nations used the Wars to get away with things they otherwise might not have.

War is often attractive in that sense too, because it can be incredibly profitable to the winner.

So if Ethniu and even other villains were to upset the mortals, I don't think it would be particularly difficult or hard to imagine that they would play us off against one another ("Here, we will give you the information/power to overcome your rival

• if you attack this country at the same time as us") or ("Do this or die") etc.

Why take us all on when it's so much easier to get us to fight among ourselves? We barely get along within our own nations, let alone as a planet.

Nations and leaders are often bought for much less than what a God or some other such power could offer, and often scared much easier too. The sad truth is that if an enemy attacked planet Earth, if they had any battle sense and did any sort of real recon and intelligence gathering they would take us apart. We just aren't that cohesive.

The other big problem would be the ability to just induce a total infrastructure collapse by just hitting all those vital bits that don't have guards.

Of course, the main result of an all out war between humans and everything else happening is that the outsiders slip in and overwhelm the remnants of both sides.

[Yuillegan]

Exactly. Ethniu already wiped out the electronics. All those modern weapons and communications are useless without electricity. Can't use a nuke without it really.

And yes, once everyone is nice and distracted the real assault happens.

[ClintACK]

I wonder how effective wizardly hexes (and the much bigger Eye of Balor effect) are against hardened military electronics, the kind designed to withstand EMP weapons.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Build a Fat Man type Nuke, that would survive a super hex, but yes the arms industry would have to re-tool itself, at least Diesilpunk style or work with the Swartalves. Harry on his own could probably junk an entire modern army.

[Blaise]

Build a Fat Man type Nuke, that would survive a super hex, but yes the arms industry would have to re-tool itself, at least Diesilpunk style or work with the Swartalves. Harry on his own could probably junk an entire modern army.

A Fat Man  nuke is highly dependent on electronics, it took  3 Nobel Prize winners, one for the design,one to make the explosive lenses, and one to design the electronics to trigger  the explosives,  to get the bomb made.   Little Boy could be made with minimal electronics.

[morriswalters]

Exactly. Ethniu already wiped out the electronics. All those modern weapons and communications are useless without electricity. Can't use a nuke without it really.

And yes, once everyone is nice and distracted the real assault happens.

Anything can be shielded,  unless Jim is postulating some uber super weapon that killed the power world wide.  And if anything away from Chicago was still functioning then they could vaporize major parts of the lake and kill anything in it.  And keep hitting it until they ran out of weapons.  Ol whats her name could take a multi century vacation to put together her pieces and parts, assuming any pieces and part were left.

Humans killed about 60 million other humans overall from 1935 to 1945.  More then all the demons and dark gods killed in their heyday.  And nukes were  only involved in the final days in Japan. Wizards should weep in fear when it gets right down to it.

[The_Sibelis]

A Fat Man  nuke is highly dependent on electronics, it took  3 Nobel Prize winners, one for the design,one to make the explosive lenses, and one to design the electronics to trigger  the explosives,  to get the bomb made.   Little Boy could be made with minimal electronics.

considering the fomor bombs, building a magical nuke might be feasible, you just need enough energy to smash an atom and the knowtof the intention. Wouldn't be easy, but not impossible I think.

[Mira]

considering the fomor bombs, building a magical nuke might be feasible, you just need enough energy to smash an atom and the knowtof the intention. Wouldn't be easy, but not impossible I think.

Nukes aren't the answer.

[Yuillegan]

considering the fomor bombs, building a magical nuke might be feasible, you just need enough energy to smash an atom and the knowtof the intention. Wouldn't be easy, but not impossible I think.

That's actually a rather terrifying thought. A magic nuke. Although to some degree they already have one: the Eye of Balor.

Anything can be shielded,  unless Jim is postulating some uber super weapon that killed the power world wide.  And if anything away from Chicago was still functioning then they could vaporize major parts of the lake and kill anything in it.  And keep hitting it until they ran out of weapons.  Ol whats her name could take a multi century vacation to put together her pieces and parts, assuming any pieces and part were left.

Humans killed about 60 million other humans overall from 1935 to 1945.  More then all the demons and dark gods killed in their heyday.  And nukes were  only involved in the final days in Japan. Wizards should weep in fear when it gets right down to it.

Are you sure that's more than all the demons and demigods and actual gods have killed? I mean Uriel has ended universes before, and I get the impression so of the bigger nasties have had similar destructive moments. That whole WOJ about how He Who Walks Behind is on Uriel's level but can only express his full power in highly specific circumstances...makes you wonder what the Old Ones have done before. I mean, the fact is we don't know how many humans have been wiped out before. We can only guess. And you're not counting plagues either by the way. If those were biological warfare....Nicodemus himself could count amongst the worst. Not to mention that little event that Maeve mentions called the Fall of Atlantis...

But I wasn't suggesting Ethniu has taken out post WW2 technology much further out than the limits of Chicago. It's more a hypothetical about the broader possible confrontation. But in terms of Battle Ground - maybe the US could fire nukes into itself. But would it? Especially if it didn't actually know what was happening. All the US would see from the Outside is Chicago go dark from what appears to be a major power failure, possible large EMP detected. Mixed word-of mouth reports of destruction and "monsters from the deep" attacking. They send planes etc to recon and get blasted. They send ground teams to investigate and enter an active warzone with a small nuke going off every so often. At this point, you might think they will nuke Chicago. But they won't. Because they don't know who's inside, which people are alive, who the enemy is and what they want. So they attempt to gather further intel, perhaps even attempt to make contact. Eventually perhaps the Wizards or someone helps clue them in. They still won't nuke at this point, if there are citizens left. And irradiating the water of Lake Michigan seems like mid-to-long term idea. They continue with ground assault etc. Nukes are a last resort, if they couldn't slow Ethniu down fast enough and she was causing more damage than it's worth. Which btw, might be several cities worth. Acceptable losses and all that.

But it's all hypothetical anyway. My point is that I find it difficult to believe that humanity are quite as dangerous as Jim makes them out to be. I can give you a laundry list of examples of where humans refuse to come together for the greater good (just this year alone...) Let alone the past century or so.

I wonder how effective wizardly hexes (and the much bigger Eye of Balor effect) are against hardened military electronics, the kind designed to withstand EMP weapons.

I considered this somewhat, but Harry's hexes and murphyonic field tend to effect more than electronics. They quite literally affect the internal components of machinery (like more modern guns which might not have any circuitry).

[vultur]

I wonder how effective wizardly hexes (and the much bigger Eye of Balor effect) are against hardened military electronics, the kind designed to withstand EMP weapons.

It might help marginally, to the degree that the components themselves are less sensitive. But the hex effect is not actually EMP (it can hit non-electronic stuff, like automatic weapons) so I don't think the actual shielding would do anything at all.

And even hardened electronics are going to be way more sensitive than automatic weapons, so a really strong hex effect will wipe out everything anyway.

Anything can be shielded,  unless Jim is postulating some uber super weapon that killed the power world wide.

It's distance based, sure, but Faraday cages and stuff won't block magic fields.
 

And if anything away from Chicago was still functioning then they could vaporize major parts of the lake and kill anything in it.  And keep hitting it until they ran out of weapons.  Ol whats her name could take a multi century vacation to put together her pieces and parts, assuming any pieces and part were left

No one's going to use attacks on that scale on their own major cities.

And according to Etri, Ethniu's titanic bronze armor is immune to any degree of physical force. IMO that means no mortal weapon, even nuclear, would work.

[morriswalters]

It might help marginally, to the degree that the components themselves are less sensitive. But the hex effect is not actually EMP (it can hit non-electronic stuff, like automatic weapons) so I don't think the actual shielding would do anything at all.

And even hardened electronics are going to be way more sensitive than automatic weapons, so a really strong hex effect will wipe out everything anyway.

It's distance based, sure, but Faraday cages and stuff won't block magic fields.
 
No one's going to use attacks on that scale on their own major cities.

And according to Etri, Ethniu's titanic bronze armor is immune to any degree of physical force. IMO that means no mortal weapon, even nuclear, would work.

Obviously the Swartelves can block magic based interference at some level otherwise Harry would be living in a cave.

Unless I misunderstand, isn't Ethniu's intention to kill everyone in Chicago? Someone killed 3000, give or take, and we entered a never ending war  with everything that implies.  Chicago has at least 2.5 million. So exactly what is the downside of nuking the Fomor who don't have a magic helmet assuming that they murder Chicago? Morgan used a nuke on a Skin Walker.  And that was crude compared to a modern device.

Which of course is not what Jim is going to write. Harry's going to stick her in the leg.  Just like the Redcap put the Hawthorn dart into him.  And then put her in a high security magic lamp for an indefinite term.

[huangjimmy108]

Jim has always said, and even in Peace Talks openly discusses, that the supernatural world are very wary to upset the angry frightened mortals because they grab their torch and pitchforks and nukes and might burn everything down.

Except, history shows that while internally the persecution of Witches and Wizards etc. might happen - human nations are unlikely to band together. In point of fact, they often take the opportunity to settle debts, seize power, and get one up on their traditional enemies. And any strategist worth his salt knows that divide and conquer is half the work anyway. Clearly part of Corb and Ethniu's plan at any rate, at least when it comes to the Accorded Nations.

Jim has actually set this up in some ways. Kemmler was largely responsible for both the first and second World Wars. He pits nation against nation and takes advantage in the chaos. I doubt he was the only one. Even historically, many nations used the Wars to get away with things they otherwise might not have.

War is often attractive in that sense too, because it can be incredibly profitable to the winner.

So if Ethniu and even other villains were to upset the mortals, I don't think it would be particularly difficult or hard to imagine that they would play us off against one another ("Here, we will give you the information/power to overcome your rival

• if you attack this country at the same time as us") or ("Do this or die") etc.

Why take us all on when it's so much easier to get us to fight among ourselves? We barely get along within our own nations, let alone as a planet.

Nations and leaders are often bought for much less than what a God or some other such power could offer, and often scared much easier too. The sad truth is that if an enemy attacked planet Earth, if they had any battle sense and did any sort of real recon and intelligence gathering they would take us apart. We just aren't that cohesive.

I don't really know. If the supernatural world stay in the shadows and manipulate nations that way, what you say here is almost certain to happened.

But if the supernatural world come out in the open? The story may be different. Because now humankind has a clear target.A target so scary, so different, so alien there may be no negotiation or communication. There is no surrender and even if the monster offer terms of surrender can humankind trust them?

The supernatural world is scary and they are different from normal humans. The fear of humankind may be great enough to unite humankind against the monsters.

As for means to fight the supernaturals. Well, it is not very obvious, but humankind has great power over the supernatural. JB is very subtle about this, but hints are sprinkled here and there throughout the series.

The collective will of human kind is a mighty force. A Threshold of a home. Walls of cemetary that does not allow spirits to pass through unless the gates is opened. Basically, once humankind gathered their will it could create miracles. Not to mentions forces like TWG who most likely protect vanilla humans.

If a war between supernatural and humankind erupt, the current system probably would collapse, but humankind itself would most likely survive and even thrive while the supernatural powers will suffer great losses which they may or may not be able to recover from.

[vultur]

Obviously the Swartelves can block magic based interference at some level otherwise Harry would be living in a cave.

I'm not saying no shielding is possible, but that existing mundane shielding on military technology designed for EMPs shouldn't do anything vs. hexing.

The Svartalves are designing specifically to deal with hexing, already understanding the principles of magic, and likely using magic themselves.

So exactly what is the downside of nuking the Fomor who don't have a magic helmet assuming that they murder Chicago?

Well, if they had already succeeded in killing off Chicago, then using nukes might be considered.

But it still wouldn't accomplish much... Harry says that Ethniu with the Eye of Balor is the big problem, not the Fomor army.

Without Ethniu and the Eye of Balor (and its super-hex effect) a Fomor army could be dealt with perfectly well by conventional weapons. The powerful sorcerers like Mag from Even Hand can shield effectively, but they only have so much energy, and most of their forces would be minions who can't do that.

Morgan used a nuke on a Skin Walker.  And that was crude compared to a modern device.

A skinwalker isn't remotely on Ethniu's level. Listens-to-Wind was able to chase one off; Ethniu is significantly stronger than Mab, therefore much more than a match for the entire White Council.

Which of course is not what Jim is going to write.

Sure, nukes won't show up in BG, but re: mortals vs supernatural world in general, I do think it's important that mortal weapons work great against wizards and vampires and stuff (e.g. sniper rifle vs Harry in Changes), but that there is an "upper limit".

Mortals can't really invade the NN without wizards helping, and anyway reality is mutable there at the will of the ruling powers (like the time bending in PG).

And Ethniu could probably literally just ignore being hit with any mundane weapon. It would take something like the Swords or the Athame/Spearhead, or maybe mordite, to harm her (short of a comparably powerful being, like Hades or maybe Ferrovax).

[Mira]

  All power is shut down, that limits mortal reaction to long guns and hand guns.. Though grenades transparently still work, however Harry and company were still off shore.  Which brings up another question, if nothing motorized works, how much closer can Harry get before the old boat motor quits?