The Fomor already unleashed ... Battle Ground Chapters 1 & 2

[Gigglestomp]

What would be funny is a repeat of the unseelie incursion where the whole city goes missing for a few hours and is drawn into the never never.  Mab and Titanic seal the ways. Then when the bad guys shownup there's nowhere to fight but empty earth and water. Battleground.

If it was over Halloween you could do a defensive darkhallow while everyones gone and suck the life from the fomor lol.

[vultur]

And influenced by the Christian monks who wrote the stuff down.

Oh yeah, the actual timelines written down fit everything into a post-Deluge history going back just several thousand years BC (not sure exactly). Given the Cthulhu elements the DV Fomor have, they could easily be millions of years old.

I'm just saying that even in those timelines the Fomor are older than 1000 BC.

[Mira]

Oh yeah, the actual timelines written down fit everything into a post-Deluge history going back just several thousand years BC (not sure exactly). Given the Cthulhu elements the DV Fomor have, they could easily be millions of years old.

I'm just saying that even in those timelines the Fomor are older than 1000 BC.

Things from been written down for a long long time, legends about "the flood" for example first appeared on brick tablets from Babylonia, and there is some geological evidence now that there was a great flood that those legends are based upon that date back eons earler.

[Yuillegan]

Oh, probably not millions. The god-level Fomor Titans like Ethniu are different of course. They came from before the universe, along with the rest of the other deities.

But the rest...that is harder to pin point.

Question is, what were all those beings doing for the several billion years before humanity came along?

[vultur]

Oh, probably not millions. The god-level Fomor Titans like Ethniu are different of course. They came from before the universe, along with the rest of the other deities.

Maybe... But I actually think it's probably only the cross-universe beings like angels/fallen angels that are from outside the universe. Ethniu is daughter of Balor, so probably isn't 'older than time'.

I was suggesting millions of years only because of the Cthulhu-type connections, in which case the original Fomor could have once been a pre-human intelligent species inhabiting the physical Earth (as opposed to the Nevernever) before the rise of humanity.

But yeah, probably not.

Question is, what were all those beings doing for the several billion years before humanity came along?

There probably isn't one answer for all of them.

Time is mutable in the Nevernever, and the NN could have been quite different before it was shaped by human thought, so many Nevernever beings might not actually have experienced all that time. Even more so for beings like angels who are "cross-universe" so might not even have been in Harry's universe before mortal humans showed up.

And some beings might be fragments of older beings, the way Hecate was apparently split to create the Faerie Queens.

And (more speculatively) mortal life might have created energy in the NN, and maybe even non-intelligent proto-Fae. Things like spirits of hunger and rage and fear might have been around as soon as animals became advanced enough to experience those emotions.

But maybe humanoid and intelligent Fae like Toot-toot didn't start showing up until humans existed to shape the NN with their thoughts.

[Avernite]

I was kind of surprised to note the critter could soulgaze.

As far as I recall we've only seen it before with humans and humans+, never with any other creatures, right? Still nice to note Harry is scary enough...

[The_Sibelis]

The thing is, is could it soul gaze cause it's freshly turned? Or because they just have a soul? Cause the second one seems even more terrifying on the scale of what they can do.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

It wasn’t a soul gaze, due to its aquatic nature it was a sole gaze.

[The_Sibelis]

It wasn’t a soul gaze, due to its aquatic nature it was a sole gaze.

totally had to look that up lol..

[Mira]

It wasn’t a soul gaze, due to its aquatic nature it was a sole gaze.

GROAN....

[Conspiracy Theorist]

I bet Jim wished he thought of the pun, just so he could inflict it upon his entire readership. Puns need to be shared.

[Regenbogen]

I bet Jim wished he thought of the pun, just so he could inflict it upon his entire readership. Puns need to be shared.

Now I know where Harry's jokes went. They transfered into you. LOL

[Mira]

Now I know where Harry's jokes went. They transfered into you. LOL

It wasn't a sole gaze so much as a filet a sole...

[Yuillegan]

Maybe... But I actually think it's probably only the cross-universe beings like angels/fallen angels that are from outside the universe. Ethniu is daughter of Balor, so probably isn't 'older than time'.

I was suggesting millions of years only because of the Cthulhu-type connections, in which case the original Fomor could have once been a pre-human intelligent species inhabiting the physical Earth (as opposed to the Nevernever) before the rise of humanity.

But yeah, probably not.

There probably isn't one answer for all of them.

Time is mutable in the Nevernever, and the NN could have been quite different before it was shaped by human thought, so many Nevernever beings might not actually have experienced all that time. Even more so for beings like angels who are "cross-universe" so might not even have been in Harry's universe before mortal humans showed up.

And some beings might be fragments of older beings, the way Hecate was apparently split to create the Faerie Queens.

And (more speculatively) mortal life might have created energy in the NN, and maybe even non-intelligent proto-Fae. Things like spirits of hunger and rage and fear might have been around as soon as animals became advanced enough to experience those emotions.

But maybe humanoid and intelligent Fae like Toot-toot didn't start showing up until humans existed to shape the NN with their thoughts.

Actually, one of the most recent WOJ confirms that all the gods are older than time. It was just after the release/ or just before Peace Talks. Basically he was asked how do all the varying creation myths work considering all the different pantheons and contradictions. Jim's response was that essentially that the act of Creation was such a big event (beyond human comprehension) that all the deities sort of remember things out of order (considering cause and effect wasn't invented yet) and that it was similar to one big party that people only remember fragments of...and it only really comes back fully when they are reminded. He didn't say who reminds them. So chances are Ethniu really is older than the universe. Remember we are dealing with seriously powerful beings here, but they don't really work the same way we do. Things like being born might only be semi-relevant to them.

The Fomor being part of the "first people" is certainly a good theory that has come up before. And I think Jim has hinted at a sort of Conan style Hyborean-era civilisations like Atlantis. And Maeve did hint that the rise of the "Sleepers" would cause destruction similar to the End of Atlantis.

All of that would only need to happen a few thousand years ago to be ancient. Even 100,000 years is a lot.

I think it's more accurate that time is MORE mutable in the Nevernever. It's plenty mutable in the physical world and mortal world.

Just to be clear, Hecate = Queens of Faerie is just a theory. It isn't confirmed. There is clearly a connection of course. But beyond that we don't know. My personal take is that the Queens, and all of the Fae, represent the remnants of several pantheons of gods. Harry even says as much in the first chapter of Battle Ground, calling the Tuatha "proto-fae".

I agree that the rise of mortals may have stirred up the NN. Jim is a big Warhammer fan and that's mostly how the Realm of Chaos/Immaterium/Warp seems to work.

I still think the biggest hint is the Butter's short story "Day One". The fact that an entity (the Baku Baku) came from the NN and used the belief of children to create a place for itself in reality. That's significant. My guess is that plus the WOJ about how beings don't change, just our ideas about who and what they are change - this gives us the best idea about how beings can both be older than the universe AND shaped/created by mortals. The being exists in a sort of shapeless/pre-mold state that changes to fit the shape created by the emotions/beliefs of mortals.

[vultur]

Actually, one of the most recent WOJ confirms that all the gods are older than time.

I've seen that, but I'm not convinced it necessarily means that... at least not in the sense I'm talking about.

Some aspects of them / their power ... yes, would go back to the beginning of the universe, in some form. But not the individual beings (at least all of them).

The power of Mab is "older than time" per Harry's Sight vision in SK, but Mab herself is younger than Nicodemus.

Given what Lea says about memories being stored in the universe in GS, I think the current generation of gods having those memories could be more like how Harry & Molly just know what Winter Law is as soon as they think about it... it could go with the 'Mantle' to some degree.

As Mother Summer says, the power can't be created or destroyed - but it can change form.

I think it's more accurate that time is MORE mutable in the Nevernever. It's plenty mutable in the physical world and mortal world.

Well, sure, relativity and all.. even without magic, in real physics, time can be tricky. But that rarely makes any actual difference unless you are dealing with really high speeds or extreme gravity wells.

Just to be clear, Hecate = Queens of Faerie is just a theory. It isn't confirmed. There is clearly a connection of course. But beyond that we don't know. My personal take is that the Queens, and all of the Fae, represent the remnants of several pantheons of gods. Harry even says as much in the first chapter of Battle Ground, calling the Tuatha "proto-fae".

Yeah, the statue of Hecate in SG confirms some kind of connection, but we don't know exactly what.

Personally I think the Queens incorporated parts of various other Mantles, including Hecate, the Greek Fates, and the Norse Norns.

My guess is that plus the WOJ about how beings don't change, just our ideas about who and what they are change - this gives us the best idea about how beings can both be older than the universe AND shaped/created by mortals. The being exists in a sort of shapeless/pre-mold state that changes to fit the shape created by the emotions/beliefs of mortals.

Yes, I think this is more or less how it works.

But I think mantles can also be divided or consolidated (consumed?)