AMA Highlights

[Dina]

What? We know that the creator abdicated? Is that canon? (This is a serious question, it is very important for me).

[The_Sibelis]

What? We know that the creator abdicated? Is that canon? (This is a serious question, it is very important for me).

the old 'mother summer" abdicated yes. That was the start of the whole theory was wondering why, and where they went.

[Dina]

Oh, the old mother Summer I knew, but we don't know that TWG is not the creator, right? Or the same God from millennia ago? Basically, we have no reason to believe that the current WG is not the original one, right?

[The_Sibelis]

Oh, the old mother Summer I knew, but we don't know that TWG is not the creator, right? Or the same God from millennia ago? Basically, we have no reason to believe that the current WG is not the original one, right?

we don't know he's not the original WG no. But if the fall happened just as reality was made,(recent Woj) then he was the Creator at that point no?

[Dina]

Yes, so it was the original. I must have misunderstood something you said.

[vultur]

I still think Starborn are a Reality vs Outsiders thing and have no connection to the Heaven vs Hell conflict.

Lucifers Job is specifically to counter balance TWG

I really doubt Jim would do it this way. Lucifer is a fallen Archangel, which makes him a counterbalance to the good Archangels, not to the Creator.

Robert Graves ‘The White Goddess’

I really wouldn't take any of Robert Graves' stuff as authoritative on much of anything... I'm pretty sure much of this is now generally thought to be based on very little.

[The_Sibelis]

Their primary aspects even mirror each other, one believes in freedom and in SmF the aura of power nic whips up from Lucifer is a complete and utter lack of freedom. And Lucifer isn't the greatest being of darkness, just the darkest.. MW is actually the tallest shadow, in a metaphysics that gives height to equal importance.

[Avernite]

It sounds good, but the timeline doesn't work. Harry was born within a year or so either way of 1975. 666 x 3 = 1998, so that would be like 24 BC. There's a bit of uncertainty in Jesus' birthdate, but it's like 1 AD-6 BC at the broadest.

While a nice thought, I feel the 666 number just dropped out of the sky too much to do that - 666 is strongly associated with Christian stories, where TWC would presumably be critical.

Moreover, Eb had to think before answering 'every 666 years'. This sounds to me like a cop-out or fudge - I don't believe any western person could need time to remember something big hapening on a 666 cycle, so he was thinking how to hide the real fact behind an also-true-but-dodgy fact.

[The_Sibelis]

While a nice thought, I feel the 666 number just dropped out of the sky too much to do that - 666 is strongly associated with Christian stories, where TWC would presumably be critical.

Moreover, Eb had to think before answering 'every 666 years'. This sounds to me like a cop-out or fudge - I don't believe any western person could need time to remember something big hapening on a 666 cycle, so he was thinking how to hide the real fact behind an also-true-but-dodgy fact.

I didn't want to be the first one to say it, but yea, Eb might be full of it in that whole Convo.

[Dina]

Their primary aspects even mirror each other, one believes in freedom and in SmF the aura of power nic whips up from Lucifer is a complete and utter lack of freedom. And Lucifer isn't the greatest being of darkness, just the darkest.. MW is actually the tallest shadow, in a metaphysics that gives height to equal importance.

I don't know what is JB idea, or what happens in his universe. But in our world, the Christian tradition says that Lucifer is not the opposite of God. God has not opposite. Literally. Lucifer and his followers fought other angels, but God is above all that.

[vultur]

And Lucifer isn't the greatest being of darkness, just the darkest.. MW is actually the tallest shadow, in a metaphysics that gives height to equal importance.

Eh, I'm not sure that's exactly what that means ... I think the whole "longest shadow, darkest dream" bit is more about how Mother Winter is the End Of All Things (though she may more accurately be one half of it).

'Darkness' might be ambiguous here. MW is basically entropy, I think. I'm not sure she's exactly 'evil' in the sense the Fallen are, beings that made a conscious Choice to be evil.

[And to me the way the Mothers talk about futures unfolding and Outsider victory being a final end in CD makes me think that the Mothers are limited to one universe. The destruction of any particular universe wouldn't mean "everything ends" for Uriel or Lucifer.

That may not be exactly the same thing as being of greater 'power', though. Demonreach is probably stronger than Mab on his island, but has much less ability to act. The Mothers could easily be as strong as archangels within their own universe.]

[The_Sibelis]

I don't know what is JB idea, or what happens in his universe. But in our world, the Christian tradition says that Lucifer is not the opposite of God. God has not opposite. Literally. Lucifer and his followers fought other angels, but God is above all that.

check your mythology again, as the Adversary, before the fall, it was literally his job to oppose the status quo. Yes I know that doesn't make him opposite, though if you go back farther to the Jewish cabbala it does. God manifest is the aeon of our level of reality, literally just an Archangel,(which of course is only a piece of God, like his mouth) where as The Adversary is his dark reflection able to act in cosmic imbalance. And who takes over this Job when Lucifer falls? His wife Lilith.. Lilith as Nemesis/the Adversary is sooo thematically correct.

Eh, I'm not sure that's exactly what that means ... I think the whole "longest shadow, darkest dream" bit is more about how Mother Winter is the End Of All Things (though she may more accurately be one half of it).

'Darkness' might be ambiguous here. MW is basically entropy, I think. I'm not sure she's exactly 'evil' in the sense the Fallen are, beings that made a conscious Choice to be evil.

[And to me the way the Mothers talk about futures unfolding and Outsider victory being a final end in CD makes me think that the Mothers are limited to one universe. The destruction of any particular universe wouldn't mean "everything ends" for Uriel or Lucifer.

That may not be exactly the same thing as being of greater 'power', though. Demonreach is probably stronger than Mab on his island, but has much less ability to act. The Mothers could easily be as strong as archangels within their own universe.]

sure she is, but it's also directly correlated to size=power. Those names were not made up for no reason. Even HHWBHs boss is seeking the shadows, to corrupt or to collect. And... I tend to think that's exactly what it is, they are Archangel level power(well, when they combine anyway) holding down reality. The Creator was never bigger than the others in that way, he just has home turf advantage. Maybe I'm listening to a different conversation than you, but the way they talk implies they are NOT so limited to me. To see multiple futures unfolding all at the same time, you have to be able to exist in them simultaneously. something for instance that the gatekeeper appears unable to do in TC.
*And the hunters if shadows/shadows of the hunters bit too..
**Ooooh, and thank you for reminding me she's called darkest dream, I had forgotten.. but it fits into a theory I have that all the sleepers dream, and in dreaming create their own domain of the dream, and that would be the outer gates made manifest I think...

[vultur]

check your mythology again, as the Adversary, before the fall, it was literally his job to oppose the status quo. Yes I know that doesn't make him opposite, though if you go back farther to the Jewish cabbala it does. God manifest is the aeon of our level of reality

I think you are mixing a bunch of different and probably incompatible interpretations. The Dresdenverse does tend to have an 'everything is real somewhere' aspect, but I don't think all incompatible interpretations of the same beings (such as God and Lucifer/Satan) can simultaneously be true.

Aeons as manifestations of God is a Gnostic thing, and I don't think the Gnostic view of reality is compatible with what we've seen of Dresdenverse cosmology.

Lilith is similarly a 'non-mainstream' concept, can't necessarily be assumed to exist in the DV and certainly not as wife of Lucifer/Satan. (If anything, I'd expect Lilith in the DV to be a misinterpretation of or alternate name for Lasciel, given her "playing both sides" aspect.)

Those names were not made up for no reason.

Oh sure... but I think 'shadow' and 'darkness' are being used metaphorically in a couple of ways that don't exactly line up. In the Winter-Summer opposition, Summer is Light and Winter is Darkness (Mab is Queen of Air and Darkness). In the Heaven-Hell opposition, Heaven is Light and Hell is Darkness.

That doesn't mean Winter=Hell or Summer=Heaven.

To see multiple futures unfolding all at the same time, you have to be able to exist in them simultaneously.

No, even Abby (a very weak talent) can do this in WN. That is just what it means to be able to see the future in the DV, it's always multiple possibilities.

[The_Sibelis]

I think you are mixing a bunch of different and probably incompatible interpretations. The Dresdenverse does tend to have an 'everything is real somewhere' aspect, but I don't think all incompatible interpretations of the same beings (such as God and Lucifer/Satan) can simultaneously be true.

Aeons as manifestations of God is a Gnostic thing, and I don't think the Gnostic view of reality is compatible with what we've seen of Dresdenverse cosmology.

Lilith is similarly a 'non-mainstream' concept, can't necessarily be assumed to exist in the DV and certainly not as wife of Lucifer/Satan. (If anything, I'd expect Lilith in the DV to be a misinterpretation of or alternate name for Lasciel, given her "playing both sides" aspect.)

Oh sure... but I think 'shadow' and 'darkness' are being used metaphorically in a couple of ways that don't exactly line up. In the Winter-Summer opposition, Summer is Light and Winter is Darkness (Mab is Queen of Air and Darkness). In the Heaven-Hell opposition, Heaven is Light and Hell is Darkness.

That doesn't mean Winter=Hell or Summer=Heaven.

No, even Abby (a very weak talent) can do this in WN. That is just what it means to be able to see the future in the DV, it's always multiple possibilities.

Abby is not doing that, that is specifically why she's sometimes wrong, she's seeing direct variations of the same future. I don't find that to be exactly the same,
Aeons changing is basically what the second coming is about, which has been directly referenced in the DF btw.
I don't see your point about the darkness thing, it not meaning that can just as easily mean that in other situations... And a equals b doesn't mean it equals c type of thing.
Nor does her unlikely hood take precedence over her likely hood to be in it. It was very unlikely of Jim to choose Etruscan and that version of the Greek Nemesis, but I believe he did.

[vultur]

Abby is not doing that, that is specifically why she's sometimes wrong, she's seeing direct variations of the same future. I don't find that to be exactly the same,

I don't think there's a difference, except for scale (Abby doesn't look far enough ahead to see drastic divergences).

But its sometimes being wrong is exactly because she can see different possible futures and doesn't necessarily know which turns out to be the real one.

From the context of the conversation, I think the Mothers are still looking at multiple possible futures unfolding from a *single* Now.

And I don't think Mother Summer would speak in terms of "empty night", "everything ends", if she was cross-universe and thus the destruction of Harry's universe would only impact an infinitesimal fraction of her being.

Aeons changing is basically what the second coming is about, which has been directly referenced in the DF btw.

Aeon in the original meaning of "an age", relevant to the Second Coming/End of Days, transition from the current age to Eternity, is something very different from Aeon as a manifestation of God which is itself divine (a Gnostic concept), which is what I thought you were referring to with Uriel being a manifestation of TWG/the Creator.

I don't see your point about the darkness thing

Just that Mother Winter being called "longest shadow, darkest dream" etc. doesn't mean she is more powerful than Lucifer.