Author Topic: Maeve and Cait Sith- what happened?  (Read 4565 times)

Offline knightedbishop

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Maeve and Cait Sith- what happened?
« on: August 20, 2020, 05:31:54 PM »
Mab said Maeve got infected via Lea. But Molly said there’s a hundred or so year backlog on the Winter Lady’s duties. Am I missing something? How was Maeve able to deny her purpose and Mab for a hundred plus years if she was only recently infected? If she was only recently infected, what exactly did Maeve and Mab mean on the island when Maeve said she wouldn’t lift a finger in the battle to come and Mab said co-opting the a Winter Lady was one of the adversary’s more effective ploys?

We know at least one, if not the major duty of the Winter Lady and why she is so close to the mortal world- she conscripts Winter's children to keep Winter able to man the Gates. That’s what I assume Maeve was shirking. How did she do that for a century or more and not lead to a severe troop depletion?

Is the reference to the Winter Lady’s strength also referring to her pure magical horsepower? Lily on Demonreach and Molly in Alaska proved they have serious magical might. But it doesn’t seem direct battle is the purpose of the queens. Like most powerful beings, the battle is probably going to the dog house if they have to throw down- the point is to win before blood is ever shed.

With Cait Sith- he’s incredibly strong. We know he was infected. Harry must have told someone. What happened? Is he just lurking out there?

« Last Edit: August 20, 2020, 07:59:36 PM by knightedbishop »

Offline KurtinStGeorge

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Re: Maeve and Cait Sith- what happened?
« Reply #1 on: August 20, 2020, 09:56:53 PM »
Maeve had issues with her mother a long time before she became nemfected.  I think there's a big difference between failing to do a job and breaking Winter Law.  The adversary simply allowed Maeve to ignore Winter Law and do things like telling outright lies, and she jumped at the chance to do so. 

I would compare Maeve to Aurora, who may not have even known she was nemfected.  I believe that Aurora thought the schemes to unbalance Summer and Winter were entirely her own.  She never fully realized what was happening to her.  Maeve knew and didn't care, she loved it.  The contrast between Maeve and Lea and Cat Sith is that Lea and Cat Sith both fought against the Nemesis infection, while Maeve embraced it.
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Offline Mira

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Re: Maeve and Cait Sith- what happened?
« Reply #2 on: August 21, 2020, 04:49:00 AM »
Maeve had issues with her mother a long time before she became nemfected.  I think there's a big difference between failing to do a job and breaking Winter Law.  The adversary simply allowed Maeve to ignore Winter Law and do things like telling outright lies, and she jumped at the chance to do so. 

I would compare Maeve to Aurora, who may not have even known she was nemfected.  I believe that Aurora thought the schemes to unbalance Summer and Winter were entirely her own.  She never fully realized what was happening to her.  Maeve knew and didn't care, she loved it.  The contrast between Maeve and Lea and Cat Sith is that Lea and Cat Sith both fought against the Nemesis infection, while Maeve embraced it.

I agree with all of that.  Aurora was tragic, Maeve not so much.  Remember when Harry and Billy visited her "court" in the Chicago Underground?  Maeve wasn't infected at that point in time, but she indeed had mommy issues, her court was a twisted cartoon of her view of her mother's court. 

Offline TheCuriousFan

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Re: Maeve and Cait Sith- what happened?
« Reply #3 on: August 21, 2020, 07:11:52 AM »
With Cait Sith- he’s incredibly strong. We know he was infected. Harry must have told someone. What happened? Is he just lurking out there?
Mab probably snapped him up for treatment after he fell into the lake, she was basically watching things unfold after all.
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Offline KurtinStGeorge

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Re: Maeve and Cait Sith- what happened?
« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2020, 02:15:02 AM »
Mab probably snapped him up for treatment after he fell into the lake, she was basically watching things unfold after all.

What you wrote sounds logical, but wouldn't that be too easy for Harry?  I mean when does Jim ever make anything easy for Harry?
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Offline morriswalters

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Re: Maeve and Cait Sith- what happened?
« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2020, 02:25:07 AM »
Mab said Maeve got infected via Lea. But Molly said there’s a hundred or so year backlog on the Winter Lady’s duties. Am I missing something? How was Maeve able to deny her purpose and Mab for a hundred plus years if she was only recently infected? If she was only recently infected, what exactly did Maeve and Mab mean on the island when Maeve said she wouldn’t lift a finger in the battle to come and Mab said co-opting the a Winter Lady was one of the adversary’s more effective ploys?

Maeve was like the coworker who does just enough not to get fired.  If you have a work history that will be clear.  In terms of Maeve and Mab and why Maeve being out of the game would have made things so much more difficult, you need to understand the underlying story arc that begins in Grave Peril.  Mab must protect against Summer and the Outsiders.  Jim harps on this constantly.  The courts are in perfect balance.  Lea is the odd Sidhe out and she stands in for Mab when Mab can't be present.  Almost every move Mab makes in the books between  Grave Peril and Cold days is about the fear of what will happen if Summer or the outsiders attack at the same time. Starting with Summer Knight she loses her Knight. Then Lea in Dead Beat and finally Maeve in Small Favor.  With Maeve's mantle gone, the balance, and Winter's strength, would be destroyed.

The way I read what happened to Cat Sith is that the mind was gone, or erased by Nemesis.

Offline Arjan

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Re: Maeve and Cait Sith- what happened?
« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2020, 07:17:50 AM »
Maeve was like the coworker who does just enough not to get fired.  If you have a work history that will be clear.  In terms of Maeve and Mab and why Maeve being out of the game would have made things so much more difficult, you need to understand the underlying story arc that begins in Grave Peril.  Mab must protect against Summer and the Outsiders.  Jim harps on this constantly.  The courts are in perfect balance.  Lea is the odd Sidhe out and she stands in for Mab when Mab can't be present.  Almost every move Mab makes in the books between  Grave Peril and Cold days is about the fear of what will happen if Summer or the outsiders attack at the same time. Starting with Summer Knight she loses her Knight. Then Lea in Dead Beat and finally Maeve in Small Favor.  With Maeve's mantle gone, the balance, and Winter's strength, would be destroyed.

The way I read what happened to Cat Sith is that the mind was gone, or erased by Nemesis.
Not erased. First changed enough for the outsiders to make him do what they wanted just like mind magic working on what is already there and when that was not enough, when Cat Sith started to reject that change and tried to reassert his true self he was possessed by Nemesis just like what happened to Lea in proven guilty when Harry saw her complete personality flip. That possession can be fought again with help.

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Offline Mira

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Re: Maeve and Cait Sith- what happened?
« Reply #7 on: August 22, 2020, 04:49:15 PM »
Not erased. First changed enough for the outsiders to make him do what they wanted just like mind magic working on what is already there and when that was not enough, when Cat Sith started to reject that change and tried to reassert his true self he was possessed by Nemesis just like what happened to Lea in proven guilty when Harry saw her complete personality flip. That possession can be fought again with help.

I don't think Harry actually saw it until he saw her in the ice treatment in Proven Guilty, and even then he attempted to free her.  In her few lucid moments she told him not to, then Nemesis took over again and Harry realized that she had to remain on ice.  I don't think he realized Cat Sith was infected until it was almost too late, didn't he kill him?

Offline Arjan

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Re: Maeve and Cait Sith- what happened?
« Reply #8 on: August 22, 2020, 04:58:42 PM »
I don't think Harry actually saw it until he saw her in the ice treatment in Proven Guilty, and even then he attempted to free her.  In her few lucid moments she told him not to, then Nemesis took over again and Harry realized that she had to remain on ice. 
That is what I pointed at. Nemesis took over, it did not erase Lea's mind. So Cat Sith's mind is probably not erased either.
Quote
I don't think he realized Cat Sith was infected until it was almost too late, didn't he kill him?
It was clear when Cat Sith attacked him. Even more when Cath Sith refused to follow orders.
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Offline Mira

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Re: Maeve and Cait Sith- what happened?
« Reply #9 on: August 22, 2020, 06:31:57 PM »
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It was clear when Cat Sith attacked him. Even more when Cath Sith refused to follow orders.

What I am saying is I don't think Cat Sith fought it, I think like Maeve he managed to hide it until his actions revealed him to Harry.  Lea managed to hide it from Harry, though I have thought some of her actions before she got the Knife hinted at infection even then.  Mab was able to stop it in time in her case, but why wasn't she able in the case of Cat Sith or Maeve?

Offline Arjan

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Re: Maeve and Cait Sith- what happened?
« Reply #10 on: August 22, 2020, 06:55:17 PM »
What I am saying is I don't think Cat Sith fought it, I think like Maeve he managed to hide it until his actions revealed him to Harry.  Lea managed to hide it from Harry, though I have thought some of her actions before she got the Knife hinted at infection even then.  Mab was able to stop it in time in her case, but why wasn't she able in the case of Cat Sith or Maeve?
If you take what happened at face value Cat Sith was not aware of the influence until Harry made him aware of it. Maybe his starbornness was part of that. After he was made aware and Harry told him resistance was possible Cat Sith tried to resist and Nemesis was forced to take over directly.

Which was a small success it turned a hidden asset into a revealed one.

I think we can take this on face value because the best hidden asset is the one that was even hidden for Cat Sith himself. Cat Sith did not need much change, just enough to make him ignore his oath. The violence was completely in character.
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Offline Mira

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Re: Maeve and Cait Sith- what happened?
« Reply #11 on: August 22, 2020, 10:15:01 PM »
If you take what happened at face value Cat Sith was not aware of the influence until Harry made him aware of it. Maybe his starbornness was part of that. After he was made aware and Harry told him resistance was possible Cat Sith tried to resist and Nemesis was forced to take over directly.

Which was a small success it turned a hidden asset into a revealed one.

I think we can take this on face value because the best hidden asset is the one that was even hidden for Cat Sith himself. Cat Sith did not need much change, just enough to make him ignore his oath. The violence was completely in character.

  Could the smug confidence of cats have anything to do with it?  In other words Cat Sith cannot conceive of being under the influence of anything except his own independent will.

Offline Arjan

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Re: Maeve and Cait Sith- what happened?
« Reply #12 on: August 22, 2020, 10:44:54 PM »
  Could the smug confidence of cats have anything to do with it?  In other words Cat Sith cannot conceive of being under the influence of anything except his own independent will.
Aurora did not understand what was happening either.
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Offline Conspiracy Theorist

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Re: Maeve and Cait Sith- what happened?
« Reply #13 on: August 23, 2020, 12:07:21 AM »
Aurora did appear to be slightly less bright than the average cat.

Offline BrainFireBob

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Re: Maeve and Cait Sith- what happened?
« Reply #14 on: August 23, 2020, 02:08:01 AM »
Posted in the wrong thread! Reposting:

I have a half-baked theory that’s tangentially involved here.

What is the purpose of the Winter and Summer ladies?

When they are first introduced, we as readers are influenced by Harry’s ignorance into thinking that the courts are balanced. They’re not. Mab has far more temporal power, but Titania acts as a kill-switch against her personally. This, in short, is enough to show that the queens aren’t mirrors.

What do we know about the Ladies? Very little.

1)   Maeve has her own coterie of supporters
2)   Per Molly, Maeve hadn’t done her job for at least a century
3)   Per Molly, we learn that at least one aspect of those duties is collecting the “tribute”- the children- of Winter fae to draft as soldiers in the war on a periodic basis
4)   Per Molly, we learn that the vamping of the Winter Lady- her seductiveness- is involuntary, and that she also must remain virgin
5)   We know that the Ladies move together- if one moves, the other follows
6)   We know that many Fae only reproduce with mortals, per WoJ
7)   We know that the war against Outside causes unfathomable casualties and Winter needs a massive army to fight it.
8)   A necessary corollary to #7 is that there’s a need for a large population of prime-age Winter beings to be breeding constantly.

So, WAG: The duties of the Winter Lady include the following:
1)   Induce changelings to Choose Fae, making them draft-eligible. Her seductiveness would be an aid in this regard, arousing their Winter instincts.
2)   A “rotation” to maintain Winter’s numbers- the Winter Lady is also responsible for making sure/escorting Fae “off the front lines” to breed.
3)   Corollary to #1: If the Winter Lady exists to tempt Fae toward Choosing, the Summer Lady must exist to guarantee their free will- the balance.

Three significant members of Maeve’s coterie are the Redcap, Jenny Greenteeth, and the Rawbones. We’re told the Rawbones need to keep absorbing dead matter to stay alive- and dead Nevernever creatures turn to goo, so as soon as he went on the front he’d be on a countdown to extinction. If, as I suspect, Lily is Greenteeth’s daughter, then two of the changelings Reuel was protecting were children of Maeve’s close supporters. If in turn they would go back to the frontlines as soon as they had a replacement- say, for instance, there always must be a Redcap- then he’s off the lines knocking up ladies until he has a Sidhe heir, at which point it’s back to fighting until dead.

What I like about this is it gives “within-Sidhe” rules for Maeve to be mucking about. To put an example name on it, the Redcap needs an heir. Until that’s accomplished, Maeve is to take him around to sexy parties.  If she induces said heirs to not Choose Fae, well, she’s still on item #1 of her in-order checklist, now isn’t she? Especially if she’s using her supporters to torment the Changelings, not doing it herself (mantle may not allow it). For their parents, since the front is probably a death sentence aside from “breeding rotation”, the incentive to support Maeve is obvious- especially if, like the Redcap, they suffer from compulsions they can’t satisfy on the front.

So Maeve can ignore her duties simply by not being diligent about a checklist. Put differently, if she is compelled by duty to put on her shoes, then go outside, and she gives one of her supporters a cookie to throw her shoes outside where she can’t get to them without going outside without shoes, then she never has to go outside, item #2 on the checklist.

Maybe it’s not even an heir- maybe she’s supposed to use the Redcap to breed units of vicious fighters, but the effect would be the same- until the numbers come in, she just has to keep throwing wild parties.