The Nine Billion Names of Harry Dresden

[Logistics515]

What about that girl Lydia with the prophetic vision Cassandra's Tears from Grave Peril? She gave Harry a vision that by now we know implies the kickoff to the BAT (there's even confirmation by Jim she helps kick it off. Though I'm not sure where it is...)

How much do you guys think that plays into the theory?

My personal impression was that her prophecy was limited to the Red Court vampire war in context, but thinking of it in a broader sense, I don't see how it couldn't apply to the BAT as well.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

If Harry is a fudge factor for predestination then this would have messed with her visions likely conflating the Red Court War and the BAT, but there is an argument that in starting the Red Court War Harry ALSO fired the first shot leading to BAT and the Red Court War and the Titan War are merely battles leading up to the Final Battle in the War for Reality. This looks likely as we have already seen connections between the Red Court and the Fomor, and with both and the Outsiders.

[ClintACK]

Lydia's prophecy had Harry as the only one who could make things go another way -- perhaps there was a concrete and immediate meaning for that.

A "What If?" scenario: What if Harry had just stood there in Grave Peril and watched Mavra use Amoracchius to sacrifice Lydia while Kravos lurked in the background and the veil between life and death had been systematically weakened? What was Mavra's big plan? We know Harry wrecked it, but he never figured out what the point was.

Aside from one of the Swords being taken out of commission (perhaps permanently), what was she hoping to gain? Tons of work went into it -- training Kravos, getting him to suicide, weeks of attacks on the Veil. Was Mavra getting ready to perform an ascension ritual? Was Kravos going to gather all the ghosts of the Red Court's victims (the ones Harry calls on in the finale) and come back to life in Lydia's body (somewhat like Corpsetaker's plot in Ghost Story), only to have Mavra consume his power and become a new Black Court Elder?

(If so, it's ironic that Mavra didn't just let Harry and friends leave...)

[Mira]

My personal impression was that her prophecy was limited to the Red Court vampire war in context, but thinking of it in a broader sense, I don't see how it couldn't apply to the BAT as well.

Oh I do, I think her vision had more of a "Armageddon" vibe to it.  It becomes a matter of scale I guess, but first there was Bianca's party, that could fit Lydia's vision, but small in scale big on ramifications.. Then there was C.I. Harry was instrumental in wiping out the Red Court true, but that really doesn't have the fire reference and since the Red Court was merely a cat's paw for a larger group, still isn't big enough.  Now what is about to happen in Chicago with the Fomor and the fact that Harry is armed with the kind of weaponry for it could very well for-fill her vision, depends.  The BAT we are talking the possible end to existence as we know it, so that more than likely fits the bill.

[Smaug with OCD]

How much do you guys think that plays into the theory?

"beginning and end?" Like... The alpha and the omega, perhaps?

Yes, it's a butt pull... but I kinda like this theory. So, have some more "evidence" as support, free of charge.

And, hey. If Dresden can be Kemmler and Merlin(both theories I've seen in various places), why not Jesus, too?

[Logistics515]

   

You know...regarding the Doubting Thomas angle. I think we might have actually had this scene already.

Cold Days, Chapter 14:

"Thomas," I said. "It's me."

"Sure it is," Thomas snarled, the pressure against me surging for a second. "Harry Dresden is dead."

I thought my eyeballs were trying to squeeze their way out of their sockets. "Glurk!"

"Now," he growled, "I'm going to give you exactly three seconds to start telling me the truth, or I swear to God they will never find enough pieces of you to identify the body."

I particularly enjoy the "I swear to God" part...

[vultur]

What was Mavra's big plan? We know Harry wrecked it, but he never figured out what the point was.

Huh. I had sort of figured it was building up to DB, but thinking about it again, there's no way she could have known the Word of Kemmler was going to be found.

[vultur]

Knowing what we know now, it seems like the HWWBehind fight when he was a teenager was almost certainly a test -- to see if he really was a starborn.

Oh, I agree. But the fact that it worked means that his "starborn potential" had to be active to some degree.

But not fully active, apparently, given how differently things went in CD against HWWBefore.

So I guess there's a "latent" starborn stage and an "active" one?

(Kind of like the Red and White Court completing the "full change" after killing, except in this case Harry unlocked the full potential after dying...)

[Smaug with OCD]

Again you have to squint and turn your head sideways a little. But, another possible piece of support for the "Harry is Christ" theory:

Didn't Harry and Mab have a talk at the end of Small Favor(?) where Harry said something along the lines of "I'm only human/I'm mortal," and Mab replied with "For now." ? I don't remember the exact quote and don't have the book close at hand to check. But, I swear I remember this exchange being part of a larger discussion at some point.

[Logistics515]

Again you have to squint and turn your head sideways a little. But, another possible piece of support for the "Harry is Christ" theory:

Didn't Harry and Mab have a talk at the end of Small Favor(?) where Harry said something along the lines of "I'm only human/I'm mortal," and Mab replied with "For now." ? I don't remember the exact quote and don't have the book close at hand to check. But, I swear I remember this exchange being part of a larger discussion at some point.

That was one of the inspirations for this strange idea. With the whole 'not lying' angle, it seemed an rather definitive statement.
Considering the whole Starborn angle and it being a recurring cycle of 666 years, she was probably a prominent element in the last one, and knows the ending.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Perhaps there is a whole conspiracy about not telling Starborn about being Starborn, like Wizards Foresight as it tempts the Starborn to play into the role rather than develop naturally.

[vultur]

Didn't Harry and Mab have a talk at the end of Small Favor(?) where Harry said something along the lines of "I'm only human/I'm mortal," and Mab replied with "For now." ? I don't remember the exact quote and don't have the book close at hand to check. But, I swear I remember this exchange being part of a larger discussion at some point.

It's in Skin Game, chapter 3, when Harry covers Marcone's goons with frost and Mab thinks Harry is being squeamish because he didn't kill them. In context, I think Mab is talking about making Harry more "Winter-y".

Sure, the Winter Knight is still mortal, but I think the key is "I'm only human". Mab probably thinks her champion needs to be more than human (even if still mortal).

[Mira]

It's in Skin Game, chapter 3, when Harry covers Marcone's goons with frost and Mab thinks Harry is being squeamish because he didn't kill them. In context, I think Mab is talking about making Harry more "Winter-y".

Sure, the Winter Knight is still mortal, but I think the key is "I'm only human". Mab probably thinks her champion needs to be more than human (even if still mortal).

It is a problem of communication and preconceived perceptions of the other.  From the get go Harry has had a negative idea of who Mab is, I doubt he still has digested the importance of the role Winter plays.  So he is constantly on the defensive and suspects and questions any and almost all of her orders.  Mab on the other hand has been saddled with incompetent/thuggish Knights for quite some time.  All she cares about is getting the job done, she has lost her human compassion over the last thousand years, so she sees little purpose in the use of mercy.  "Human" doesn't get the job done, she expects more, that is why her human Knights have the mantle they have.

[vultur]

It is a problem of communication and preconceived perceptions of the other.

Yeah, exactly. None of the things Mab has had Harry do were actually things he would object to if he knew the real purpose of them:

- stopping the Faerie Court war instigated by Nemesis in SK
- stopping the Denarians in SmF
- killing Maeve the primary Nemesis agent in Winter & thus one of the primary threats to reality in CD
- messing up Nicodemus' plans and cutting him off from support in SG
- and in PT, the favors actually were used to rescue Thomas, which Harry would have tried to do anyway

Now in CD he thought Mab might be the one compromised, since he thought Maeve couldn't lie and she'd planted doubt about Mab's sanity as far back as PG. But afterwards, looking back... especially now that he knows Mab's real purpose...

I'm not really sure why Mab needed to isolate Harry between CD and SG. If she'd explained what Bonea really was, Harry would have waited until she was ready to be born rather than have Molly remove her immediately. And if Mab had started out explaining that the real plan in SG was to cut Nicodemus off from all his support, she probably wouldn't have needed to compel him to participate.

[TheCuriousFan]

Yeah, exactly. None of the things Mab has had Harry do were actually things he would object to if he knew the real purpose of them:

- stopping the Faerie Court war instigated by Nemesis in SK
- stopping the Denarians in SmF
- killing Maeve the primary Nemesis agent in Winter & thus one of the primary threats to reality in CD
- messing up Nicodemus' plans and cutting him off from support in SG
- and in PT, the favors actually were used to rescue Thomas, which Harry would have tried to do anyway

Now in CD he thought Mab might be the one compromised, since he thought Maeve couldn't lie and she'd planted doubt about Mab's sanity as far back as PG. But afterwards, looking back... especially now that he knows Mab's real purpose...

I'm not really sure why Mab needed to isolate Harry between CD and SG. If she'd explained what Bonea really was, Harry would have waited until she was ready to be born rather than have Molly remove her immediately. And if Mab had started out explaining that the real plan in SG was to cut Nicodemus off from all his support, she probably wouldn't have needed to compel him to participate.

Giving a straight answer even when you want to seems to get harder the further up the faerie ladder you are.