a clue about harry's status *peace talks spoilers*

[prince lotore]

this may be nothing but in Christmas eve mab says to harry

(click to show/hide)

“It is meant for your daughter,” Mab said.  “And it will give her powers.”

I snapped the box shut and eyed Mab.  “Excuse me?”

She made an impatient sound.  “Not like that, wizard,” she said.  “If you give her the ring she will… have a certain amount of influence, until next stroke of noon, over the forces of winter.”  She sighed.  “And it will play music.”

Its not a open declaration that he is a wizard in good standing but mab strikes me as a stickler for titles

[Mira]

this may be nothing but in Christmas eve mab says to harry

(click to show/hide)

“It is meant for your daughter,” Mab said.  “And it will give her powers.”

I snapped the box shut and eyed Mab.  “Excuse me?”

She made an impatient sound.  “Not like that, wizard,” she said.  “If you give her the ring she will… have a certain amount of influence, until next stroke of noon, over the forces of winter.”  She sighed.  “And it will play music.”

Its not a open declaration that he is a wizard in good standing but mab strikes me as a stickler for titles

  Harry remains a wizard whether the White Council recognizes him as a member or not.  Even if they "demoted" him to apprentice as they tried to do back in Summer Knight, I think he still remains a wizard.  He has too much talent, too much power, too many learned skills to be considered otherwise.  Not unlike Elaine and Mort, it matters not that the White Council doesn't call them such, they are still wizards...

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Harry’s Standing will be determined in Battle Ground, where he will be seen as the most effective player on the Battlefield, outclassing the senior council, including Eb and all other magic users.

Bit difficult in those circumstances to say his status is questionable, that he has a conflict of interest as Winter Knight, that his actions have repercussions on the rest of the White Council, that he lives his life as a wizard too much in the public eye.

[ElJefe81]

First, I think that is probably reading too much into it.

That being said, if there is significance in her calling him that, I think it actually would indicate the reverse--a White Council Wizard would be a capital "W" wizard, like an official title.  Wizard lowercase is just Mab calling him what he is, a wizard.  There is of course nothing keeping Mab from referring to him as a "wizard" and having it mean nothing has changed with his WC status.  I would tend to think it's her way of acknowledging he's a slight improvement over your generic "mortal".

[Mira]

First, I think that is probably reading too much into it.

That being said, if there is significance in her calling him that, I think it actually would indicate the reverse--a White Council Wizard would be a capital "W" wizard, like an official title.  Wizard lowercase is just Mab calling him what he is, a wizard.  There is of course nothing keeping Mab from referring to him as a "wizard" and having it mean nothing has changed with his WC status.  I would tend to think it's her way of acknowledging he's a slight improvement over your generic "mortal".

 I think it is her acknowledgement that Harry pulled everyone's chess nuts out of the fire at great personal cost.  As of Christmas Eve he has truly gained her respect and she owes him a great debt that cannot be paid.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

I think he not only pulled everyone chestnuts out of the fire, I think he finally got one over on Mab as well. Her manipulations are to strengthen the Accords, and make Harry her pet monster by having him the new Black staff of the White Council, I think Harry uses his knowledge gained from Mother Summer and returns the Black Staff to Mother Winter, trumping Mab on this point and gaining a favour from Mother Winter, a favour which of course could affect and bind Mab. This is why Mab is playing nice in Christmas Eve. It may give Harry the power to relinquish the Winter Knight Mantle in the future, his daily fight against it is finite.

[Mira]

I think he not only pulled everyone chestnuts out of the fire, I think he finally got one over on Mab as well. Her manipulations are to strengthen the Accords, and make Harry her pet monster by having him the new Black staff of the White Council, I think Harry uses his knowledge gained from Mother Summer and returns the Black Staff to Mother Winter, trumping Mab on this point and gaining a favour from Mother Winter, a favour which of course could affect and bind Mab. This is why Mab is playing nice in Christmas Eve. It may give Harry the power to relinquish the Winter Knight Mantle in the future, his daily fight against it is finite.

No, I actually think Mab was being sincere at Christmas and not at her usual manipulations, which is  even more scary I think.

[Arjan]

No, I actually think Mab was being sincere at Christmas and not at her usual manipulations, which is  even more scary I think.

I think there is old woj that implies that their working relationship will gradually improve over time. I see no reason not to take her at her word when she talks about obligations to her vassal. I think it is very important that Harry gets a better idea about what those obligations are so of course he won’t.

[Mira]

I think there is old woj that implies that their working relationship will gradually improve over time. I see no reason not to take her at her word when she talks about obligations to her vassal. I think it is very important that Harry gets a better idea about what those obligations are so of course he won’t.

I think it will come down to respect.  Mab has claimed a degree of respect for Harry because of his defiance of her, but she doesn't really like it.  Lets not forget it has been a few hundred years or more since she truly has had a Knight that has not only earned her respect, but that she truly respects.  At some point Harry will have to begin to trust Mab and what her true goals are.  Only
then will she take off his leash and he begin to function as a star born should.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Harry needs to get something over Mab to make it more of a partnership.

[Mira]

Harry needs to get something over Mab to make it more of a partnership.

If he prevails in the up and coming battle, not just using the Spear but leading people, there will
be no need to "get something over Mab," it will be a partnership.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Nope, this is Mab manipulating Harry to her ends, Harry needs to break free to some extent, outplay Mab and not become her pet monster. There is nothing that can be given by Mab, only won from her.  There is one being that Harry can work with to achieve that end, Mother Winter. Get a favour from Mother Winter and Mab is then on her toes.

Mother Winter does say that Mab is too soft hearted, and would welcome the chance to demonstrate to Mab that is the case.

[ClintACK]

I don't think you can create trust by beating someone and forcing it out of them. It's a victory that you can only win by surrendering.

Harry asked Mab to trust him after the fake sexual assault on the dance floor, and she did, but it was mild trust at best. The next step will be for Harry to dramatically demonstrate that he trusts Mab -- not trusts her to be a good person or trusts her to look out for his best interests, but at least trusts her to do what's best to keep the Outsiders at bay.

I'm guessing that with Ethniu trashing Chicago and the Accords and the Outsiders assaulting the Gates, Mab's not going to have a lot of time to focus on manipulating Harry. If he tells her that he understands the stakes and asks her to just tell him what she needs him to get done in Chicago and trust him to do it -- she might just be desperate enough to try it.

[Arjan]

Actually what she wants was made clear during changes. She wants him to share her purpose.

[ClintACK]

During Changes?

But, yes. She wants him to share her Purpose. What's frustrating is that since Cold Days, when Mother Summer took him on a field trip to see the Gates, he's been ready to do that. It's just a failure to communicate -- like so many of Harry's problems.

All the head-explodey manipulation of Skin Game was mostly unnecessary. (Although he probably wouldn't have accepted "Get the weapons from the vault, don't betray Nicodemus until he betrays you first." as good enough. Being Harry, he'd have dug in his heels and wanted to know more -- and then tried to fight to save Deirdre, putting the whole enterprise at risk.)