Mirror Mirror Next?

[Smaug with OCD]

That

yea, but I'd they know what a starborn does, and is immune to Nemesis then It creates whole host of other issues, why be afraid he went warlock in the first place? Why would Morgan even think he might be a Nemesis puppet unless he was totally ignorant of starborn? Idk, something ain't adding up... Plus we don't understand why Harry was meant to be a capital D Destroyer... This just makes more questions for me than answers... I really feel like Harry shouldn't have interrupted EB talking about starborn, there's more to it than what was said for sure. Feel like Jim gave us a piece to chew on but it's a misdirection... "Lookest thou over there!" And all

That inconsistency could be an implication that Eb is Nemfected...

Yet more support for that theory...

[ClintACK]

If Eb is Nemfected, then Harry just exposed his mind to the Outside in direct violation of the 7th law on the advice of a Nemfected individual, and we only have Eb's word that it was safe for Harry.

Perhaps the rash of continuity violations are actually Harry going mad?

[morriswalters]

Perhaps they are a result of Jim creating two books out of one.

However no one is acting totally rationally.  Almost like someone was influencing them.

[vultur]

yea, but I'd they know what a starborn does, and is immune to Nemesis then It creates whole host of other issues, why be afraid he went warlock in the first place? Why would Morgan even think he might be a Nemesis puppet unless he was totally ignorant of starborn?

- Being Starborn might protect you from Nemesis (and even that's just Harry's speculation), but wouldn't prevent you from going warlock. Harry was tainted by killing Justin, in the early books, although he seems to have overcome that.

- People might willingly use the Outsiders for power, even if not Nemfected. I doubt Nemesis bothered to infect the Evil Eye cult in BR, but they were using an Outsider-powered entropy curse.

- How sure was Morgan that Harry actually was Starborn? Maybe he couldn't rule out it being a deception by Lord Raith and Maggie Sr. (IE - maybe he wasn't convinced that Maggie Sr had ever really reformed.)

[vultur]

The fact that the nails were angels themselves, makes me think this, I thought originally that the nails and the swords had been created by the ritual and that was it’s purpose, but the nails were already powered up, so what was the purpose?

Other way around, I think. The nails and coins probably only contained angels and Fallen after they were given significance by the events around the Crucifixion.

If Lucifer were patient zero for Nemesis then the object is to eventually cure him.

I'm pretty sure Lucifer being Nemfected is ruled out by WOJs - both that Archangels can't be infected (not because they're on guard but because they're too metaphysically huge and/or immutable) and that Lucifer is anti-Outsider.

I remember it being suggested the placard could help find true names.

Apparently Ethniu is known by several other names in Irish myth, so "Ethniu" might not be her True Name.

If angels were immune you would’t Have Hellfire at Arctis Tor.

Not necessarily - the human host could be Nemfected, or a Denarian might be working for the Outsiders without any Nemesis involved.

And "for" the Outsiders might be a loose term here. For all we know a Fallen angel wouldn't really lose anything if this particular universe got turned to "Empty Night"; there are a lot of other universes out there. So maybe Thorned Namshiel thinks that if this universe gets destroyed, he would be freed of his Coin (which would be destroyed with the rest of the matter in the universe) and then he wouldn't have to bother with working through a human host anymore.

[Mira]

Being Starborn might protect you from Nemesis (and even that's just Harry's speculation), but wouldn't prevent you from going warlock. Harry was tainted by killing Justin, in the early books, although he seems to have overcome that.

   I agree, one is an outside force, Nemesis causing the madness.  Becoming warlock is caused by an inside force/talent misused and abused that is addictive and unless checked leads to evil.

[Bad Alias]

Other way around, I think. The nails and coins probably only contained angels and Fallen after they were given significance by the events around the Crucifixion.

I wonder if an angel resides in the nail or uses it as a vessel/channel for it's power. Residing in the coins seems like a punishment as much as a cheat to act in the world.

[The_Sibelis]

   I agree, one is an outside force, Nemesis causing the madness.  Becoming warlock is caused by an inside force/talent misused and abused that is addictive and unless checked leads to evil.

I disagree, both are from outside reality, both replace what was there with something inhuman and monstrous. Both, if necromancy is any example, come from the power of being NOT. The way the feeling is described in book when touched upon, being greasy, cold, ect. If magic is part of creation, then it's opposing force is an element of destruction, it isn't natural to reality, has to come from somewhere.
And that's not even starting on the whole mirroring/shadow theory. The fae(pretty much everything actually, TWG and Lucifer for instance, Mouse calling Him My Shadow was a cluebat) protect themselves from being a mirror from Nemesis, a beacon as put forth in PG(that's the double ontondre that Jim always has, where explaining one facet of the DF reality actually explains something else too, it's explaining how Nemesis finds hosts), by having their mirror inside reality, when that mirroring slips it creates cosmic imbalances through which Nemesis can act.when wizards start to break the laws they're violating free will, cosmic order, which we know twists things, things like shagnasty who were supposed to leave but chose to stay, ghosts who manifest and mess with ppl, ect. But wizards aren't JUST twisted, they're replaced. That replacement has to come from somewhere no?  Violating free will has no place in reality, but doing so makes you a beacon for things of a similar nature. This is I think why warlocks have to be executed after a certain point. It's all wrapped up together.

[vultur]

I wonder if an angel resides in the nail or uses it as a vessel/channel for it's power. Residing in the coins seems like a punishment as much as a cheat to act in the world.

Yeah, the angels in the Swords probably aren't imprisoned in the same way the fallen angels in the coins are.

There's a WOJ that the 30 Fallen in the coins are ones Lucifer didn't want around because they might mess up and/or challenge his control of Hell (Lasciel apparently never really followed him in the first place, "playing both sides" of the War in Heaven). So I agree they are actually "constrained" and not just using a trick to act in the mortal world.

But even so, I think the association with the Crucifixion gave the nail the "significance" to become a "focus point" for an angel.

That is, I don't think the DV Jesus was crucified with already-angelic or otherwise previously "special" nails. I think all these items (the nails, the spearhead/athame, the Grail, the placard, the Shroud, the Crown of Thorns) gained significance/power due to their association with the Crucifixion.

[The_Sibelis]

Yeah, the angels in the Swords probably aren't imprisoned in the same way the fallen angels in the coins are.

There's a WOJ that the 30 Fallen in the coins are ones Lucifer didn't want around because they might mess up and/or challenge his control of Hell (Lasciel apparently never really followed him in the first place, "playing both sides" of the War in Heaven). So I agree they are actually "constrained" and not just using a trick to act in the mortal world.

But even so, I think the association with the Crucifixion gave the nail the "significance" to become a "focus point" for an angel.

That is, I don't think the DV Jesus was crucified with already-angelic or otherwise previously "special" nails. I think all these items (the nails, the spearhead/athame, the Grail, the placard, the Shroud, the Crown of Thorns) gained significance/power due to their association with the Crucifixion.

idk, I think they were Nortia's nails of inexorable human fate before TWC literally took humanities fate and spared us from it. I think if the nails 'Fall' they'd be weapons of destruction again.. possibly he only made them Rise to good purposes with his actions.
*Nortia's the Etruscan version of the Greek Nemesis btw

[vultur]

I disagree, both are from outside reality,

I really don't think the corruption of warlocks is from outside reality. I think it's just a consequence of human nature and the nature of magic. We're told over and over that magic comes from who and what you are, that you have to really fundamentally believe that something should happen before you can make it happen with magic.

So using dark magic draws on the darker aspects of a wizard's nature, and strengthens them. They couldn't do it in the first place if those darker aspects weren't there, and doing it reinforces those aspects more and more, makes the darker aspects of their nature more and more dominant.

I also think the White Council tends to overstate the degree to which warlocks 'inevitably' become corrupted. Some clearly do, but...

Harry doesn't seem to get the same kind of dark-magic-taint-urges as he did in the early books. Maybe the Winter Mantle has just overridden that, but it wasn't really a thing in WN/SmF/TC - once Lash stopped being evil but before he took up the Mantle - either.

And Molly was using mind magic quite a bit, and her POV in Bombshells doesn't seem warped by it. She's damaged in other ways, but it seems more PTSD and grief and guilt type stuff, not "I'm going to start controlling everyone's mind for my benefit" stuff.

The way the feeling is described in book when touched upon, being greasy, cold, ect. If magic is part of creation, then it's opposing force is an element of destruction, it isn't natural to reality, has to come from somewhere.

Eh, I think there's a couple of different kinds of dark magic.

Harry in DB talks about how Cowl's magic doesn't feel like other dark magic he's encountered. He also talks in the same book about how necromancers and vampires draw from some kind of "death power" that's different from the "life power" Harry and other normal wizards use.

[The_Sibelis]

That doesn't entirely explain why they go batshet crazy, or them being replaced by inhuman entities which isn't the same.normal wizards don't get effected by using regular magic to become more likely to use magic after all? They don't suddenly become paragon's of virtue in their old age..
And Harry has had mouse awhile, He Who Licks Away Dark Magic corruption.
Molly hasn't used free will, and ergo cosmic law violating magic in quite awhile.. which do you refer to here? She used it like a fae when the rag lady, she cast illusions into minds but didn't make them do anything, they reacted to what they saw. Same as earlier descriptions of far making you run into traffic and the like.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Free will, it’s the one thing many of the major entities don’t have, that’s why we have MM we see Destroyery Harry, our Harry is Savoury*Harry.

Either this creates a parallel world scenario in which no-one knows until the last minute whether they are in Destoyer or Saviour world. We have to presume there are dead branches where the Starborn didn’t stand against the Outsiders and that world was Destroyed to prevent them coming into that reality, cleansed of mortal life.

The other option is that time travel creates the parallel worlds, a Starborn seeking to revise their decision and perhaps choose the better branch to live on.

*why do you think Mouse likes the taste so much?

[Mira]

*why do you think Mouse likes the taste so much?

They are crunchy...

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Well his hand was....