666 years and what follows - The Cycle

[The_Sibelis]

It is clear there are multiple long term conflicts which are ongoing, the Outsiders, Heaven v Hell and the Oblivion War, and it is quite possible for someone to be a participant in more than one of them at the same time.

Jesus isn’t Starborn he was literally part of the White God, that doesn’t mean that there wasn’t a Starborn involved, if they are Wizards who are long lived and cheat.

idk, he was literally born under a star. I'd think it fair to say if TWG planned his life out, he planned his birth to be most opportune.

Starborn seems to be 'wizards business' per River Shoulders.

[vultur]

It is clear there are multiple long term conflicts which are ongoing, the Outsiders, Heaven v Hell and the Oblivion War, and it is quite possible for someone to be a participant in more than one of them at the same time.

Sure. It's more that I think Nemesis is operating on a far smaller scale than the Heaven vs. Hell conflict.

Nemesis is probably more on the level of the Walkers or below, agents of the Outside fighting a war against the defenders of the universe led by Mab - but that is I think a conflict for the fate of one particular universe.

The Angels/Fallen and Archangels/Lucifer are working across the multiverse spectrum of realities (though the Denarians in the coins might be limited to just one universe - I don't know how that works)

[Bad Alias]

If it was part of his job, he could just vaporize the entire Outsider army beyond the Gates with a thought.

I'm not convinced. I've always taken it as universes get destroyed because the Outsider army breaches the Gates and Team Heaven's only option is to destroy that universe to prevent something worse, like a foothold from which they could bridge from the Inside of one universe to the next much like is going to happen in Mirror, Mirror.

[The_Sibelis]

I'm not convinced. I've always taken it as universes get destroyed because the Outsider army breaches the Gates and Team Heaven's only option is to destroy that universe to prevent something worse, like a foothold from which they could bridge from the Inside of one universe to the next much like is going to happen in Mirror, Mirror.

this is my interpretation as well, and since Uriel basically insures free will, insures choice, he's basically the gardener of the life tree to me, with each reality spun off as another branch while he prunes those that go dead.

[The_Sibelis]

Ok so I've spotted a huge flaw in this cycle being 666 years... Woj is Rashid was Harry the last cycle... But Rashid is waaay older than that. Mostly due to staying in the NN, he's the oldest council member, maybe even technically the oldest human alive. How can the cycle be 666 if Rashid is at least older than the Mad Arab?
Also looking up astrological cycles I found "At one degree per 66 years, one decan of a zodiacal sign (i.e. 10 degrees) is precessed in a period of 666 years - a value made famous in the Book of Revelation as the Number of the Beast" so perhaps it's just a degree of a cycle and not the cycle itself?

[vultur]

Do we know Heaven has anything to do with destroying  "lost" universes?

But anyway, the Winter Fae go Outside and fight them. Uriel's vastly stronger than Mab, much less random Sidhe soldiers.

Ok so I've spotted a huge flaw in this cycle being 666 years... Woj is Rashid was Harry the last cycle... But Rashid is waaay older than that.

I think Rashid is two cycles ago... born in the 7th century, and took down Alhazred in the 8th.

[Bad Alias]

Do we know Heaven has anything to do with destroying  "lost" universes?

No. I just think Jim's implied it.

But anyway, the Winter Fae go Outside and fight them. Uriel's vastly stronger than Mab, much less random Sidhe soldiers.

Mab's way stronger than a random Summer Fae soldier, but she's balanced by Titania. I think something similar is going on with Creation vs. Outside.

[Arjan]

We continuously hear how powerful Uriel is but that power is beyond a point almost meaningless. What is important is what he can do with that power. What he is allowed to do. What his duties are. He has enough power to do that.

[The_Sibelis]

No. I just think Jim's implied it.
Mab's way stronger than a random Summer Fae soldier, but she's balanced by Titania. I think something similar is going on with Creation vs. Outside.

yeah, all of creation is in balance with the outside. Inside creates its own balance with itself to keep outside, outside

[vultur]

No. I just think Jim's implied it.

In the books, or in a WoJ? Can you point me to something? That would be interesting to see.

Mab's way stronger than a random Summer Fae soldier, but she's balanced by Titania. I think something similar is going on with Creation vs. Outside.

Could be, but I kind of doubt it.

IIRC the thing where only mortals can summon Outsiders has to do with mortal Free Will, kind of like being invited into a threshold.

I think Mab and Winter are strong enough to counter any direct forces the Outsiders can bring against the Outer Gates, essentially by definition -- that is the purpose of their power.

The reason the Outsiders are still a big deal to beings vastly beyond Mab (like angels and fallen angels) is because they can't counter the Mortal Free Will side of things.

We continuously hear how powerful Uriel is but that power is beyond a point almost meaningless. What is important is what he can do with that power. What he is allowed to do. What his duties are. He has enough power to do that.

Yeah, exactly. Uriel isn't allowed to go disintegrate all the Outsiders, so he can't. But I don't think there are any Outsiders on the level of angels/archangels, or even the Faerie Mothers, or they'd just smash right through Winter's army at the Gates.

[Second Aristh]

Yeah, exactly. Uriel isn't allowed to go disintegrate all the Outsiders, so he can't. But I don't think there are any Outsiders on the level of angels/archangels, or even the Faerie Mothers, or they'd just smash right through Winter's army at the Gates.

In the case that there were, though, perhaps Creation needs someone with good eyes keeping a lookout, someone that could summon aid.  Sounds like a good job for a Gatekeeper to me.

[Bad Alias]

In the books, or in a WoJ? Can you point me to something? That would be interesting to see.

I couldn't find anything. I think there was something about Harry would be upset with Uriel if he knew what Uriel had done.

There is one WoJ about Outsiders looking a particular way based on which universe they're trying to get into. This leads me to believe that there's only one Outside.

I don't see what summoning has to do with defeating all the Outsiders at the Gates.

I just think Jim is big on balance between opposing forces, and not just with the Faerie Courts.

I don't think there's even a clear leaning as to what's actually going on between Creation and Outside. I don't think this is even something that ever has to be answered for Jim to tell a full and complete story, so I don't know if we'll ever get a definitive answer.

[vultur]

I couldn't find anything. I think there was something about Harry would be upset with Uriel if he knew what Uriel had done.

Wouldn't surprise me. Doesn't Bob say he was responsible for the Plague of the Death of the Firstborn? Uriel's "on the side of the angels" (heh) cosmically, but he's a scary guy.

There is one WoJ about Outsiders looking a particular way based on which universe they're trying to get into. This leads me to believe that there's only one Outside.

I agree. I think it's been said that parallel universes or whatever (the universes making up the multiverse) are connected through the Nevernever.

So yeah I think there's just one Outside, beyond the Nevernever.

I don't see what summoning has to do with defeating all the Outsiders at the Gates.

I just meant that since we see a bunch of Outsiders in the mortal world in CD, a real victory for the Outsiders has to be more than just getting some troops through the Gates. Because the presence of a bunch of Outsiders led by He-Who-Walks-Before didn't really mess up reality noticeably.

I don't know if it's a matter of a "critical mass" of Outsiders needed within reality to destroy it (override it by their alien nature?) or if there's some specific thing they have to do to win... but I think there's something.

I don't think this is even something that ever has to be answered for Jim to tell a full and complete story, so I don't know if we'll ever get a definitive answer.

Maybe not all the background details, but I think we'll know a lot more.

The last book title is planned to be "Empty Night" which Mother Summer uses in CD to describe an Outsider victory.

So I imagine the BAT will end with Outsiders breaking into reality and Harry will have to lead the defense of Reality and do some kind of Starborn thing to kick them back out, or imprison them in Demonreach, or something.

(Mab says at one point "the stars will fall from the sky when Mab keeps not her word" or something to that effect. I'm sort of thinking Mab will be forced to break her word in some way, which will weaken her to the point where she is killed and her Mantle destroyed. Winter falls and the Outsiders break in, and the BAT kicks off.)

[The_Sibelis]

I'd like to think so too. Pretty sure Jim said as much concerning the outside, but that they manifest differently depending upon the reality. Imo because different things exist to reflect or different things have been destroyed for them to manifest as.

[Bad Alias]

I think it's been said that parallel universes or whatever (the universes making up the multiverse) are connected through the Nevernever.

Jim's often said, or strongly implied, that you can get to Tavi's world (or whatever) in the Nevernever. I've never heard him say anything about how one gets to a parallel universe. I'm of no opinion on how one travels to parallel universes. We'll get something in 2022, hopefully.

I just meant that since we see a bunch of Outsiders in the mortal world in CD, a real victory for the Outsiders has to be more than just getting some troops through the Gates. Because the presence of a bunch of Outsiders led by He-Who-Walks-Before didn't really mess up reality noticeably.

I don't know if it's a matter of a "critical mass" of Outsiders needed within reality to destroy it (override it by their alien nature?) or if there's some specific thing they have to do to win... but I think there's something.

Yeah. It might just be wrecking up the place so much that the Gates can't be defended, or it's just easier to destroy the place from the inside.

Maybe not all the background details, but I think we'll know a lot more.

I agree. Some things will be pretty clear, and some things will be argued over (including the pretty clear stuff  ) for as long as people like us are reading his books.