Author Topic: "I can't," she said. (Spoilers for Peace Talks and Cold Case)  (Read 7105 times)

Offline ClintACK

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Proposed: When a faerie who cannot lie tells you that she cannot do something, she's probably not speaking metaphorically.

Theory: Molly literally cannot tell her parents that she's the Winter Lady.

In Cold Case, we learned that there are things Molly literally can't say or tell people, without a fair bargain in place. She tries to tell Carlos what she's doing in Unalaska, and it keeps coming out as Maeve-style subtlety-of-a-two-by-four flirting instead.

Similarly, when Harry asks her to tell him how she's handling being Winter Lady, she says: "Can't, literally. Faerie mystique and all that."

When he raises the subject of telling her parents: "I will," she said with a bit too much instant assurance. "You know. When I find a way to bring it up." Perhaps she means this literally as well -- she can't just bring up the subject and tell them, without some sort of pretext or bargain or way to make it her duty to tell them.

In Peace Talks, Harry cuts off her explanation fo why she hasn't told them, assuming that he understands. What if he doesn't? What if her explanation was going to be that it could harm the cause of Winter to have Michael angry, and she literally can't take that risk without a benefit to Winter to balance the scales. Through the rest of the conversation, she says things like: "I can't," (italics in the orignal), "It hurts," "I can't," "I can't," and "I can't ask you to do that."

Remember that she can't lie. When she says that she can't do something, we should assume that she's being completely literal.

It's a horrific conversation when you parse it that way -- she's weeping and begging him to help her and he just thinks she needs a hug and some emotional support.

Offline spiritofair

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Re: "I can't," she said. (Spoilers for Peace Talks and Cold Case)
« Reply #1 on: July 28, 2020, 08:28:05 PM »
Oh, duh. Of course! Harry is so dumb, lol.

Offline KurtinStGeorge

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Re: "I can't," she said. (Spoilers for Peace Talks and Cold Case)
« Reply #2 on: July 29, 2020, 12:07:51 AM »
But as someone in the Dresden Files; maybe it was Michael, once said, "The faeries are such lawyers."  (or something like that)  In any case, if Molly can't outright tell her parents that she's the Winter Lady she'll have to do something else, like show them she's the Winter Lady.  Harry will have to play along with the Molly's game, one way or another.  Molly might give Harry some specific orders or he might have to figure out what's going on and realize he has to play his part.  In the end, Michael, Charity or both will realize what happened and figure out that Molly is the new Winter Lady.  Once they've said it, the reason for keeping the secret is gone and Molly should be free to talk about it.  Though Molly will still have to keep the details of her job secret.
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Offline ClintACK

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Re: "I can't," she said. (Spoilers for Peace Talks and Cold Case)
« Reply #3 on: July 29, 2020, 12:10:15 AM »
That sounds right. I'm just surprised that Michael seeing Molly's face on the Hecate statue in Skin Game didn't trigger the revelation somehow.

Offline forumghost

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Re: "I can't," she said. (Spoilers for Peace Talks and Cold Case)
« Reply #4 on: July 29, 2020, 12:13:17 AM »
That sounds right. I'm just surprised that Michael seeing Molly's face on the Hecate statue in Skin Game didn't trigger the revelation somehow.

We should all be thankful that it didn't. Michael would not have been happy, and he was piloting Uriel's Jumbo Jet at the time...

Offline Arjan

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Re: "I can't," she said. (Spoilers for Peace Talks and Cold Case)
« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2020, 06:10:35 AM »
But he might have realized later. For all we know Michael already knows just like he knew about Lasciel's coin. It is not out of character for Michael to wait for Molly to tell him.


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Offline Dina

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Re: "I can't," she said. (Spoilers for Peace Talks and Cold Case)
« Reply #6 on: July 29, 2020, 07:27:18 AM »
You know? When I read that part I understand the "I can't" as "I literally can't". So I thought Harry would need to tell them. I was surprised that Harry did not offer that in the spot. But then, the rest of the conversation...it seems clear that she thinks she may be able to tell them if she has some support.

Besides, I am not sure Molly is a fae yet. She is changing, she is becoming a fae, but I am not sure she is totally unable to lie right now. I am wondering who else knows Molly is the Lady. I mean, in the PT is clear that everybody knows she is the Winter Lady. Apparently, the white council knows. I see no reason why the Knights wouldn't. And if they know, probably a literal angel told a retired Knight. It seems...difficult to keep the secret in something like that.
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Offline Arjan

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Re: "I can't," she said. (Spoilers for Peace Talks and Cold Case)
« Reply #7 on: July 29, 2020, 10:01:27 AM »
You know? When I read that part I understand the "I can't" as "I literally can't". So I thought Harry would need to tell them. I was surprised that Harry did not offer that in the spot. But then, the rest of the conversation...it seems clear that she thinks she may be able to tell them if she has some support.
She can not lie but She can play with existing meanings of words and sentences. “She can’t because her father will see it as...” is not lying.
Quote
Besides, I am not sure Molly is a fae yet. She is changing, she is becoming a fae, but I am not sure she is totally unable to lie right now.
We have the inner dialog in bombshells, she is subject to winter law but we do not know if not lying is part of that.

Quote
I am wondering who else knows Molly is the Lady. I mean, in the PT is clear that everybody knows she is the Winter Lady. Apparently, the white council knows. I see no reason why the Knights wouldn't. And if they know, probably a literal angel told a retired Knight. It seems...difficult to keep the secret in something like that.
An angel won’t tell him. That would interfere with Molly’s telling him and though Molly does not have free will anymore it is still her decision.

Same reason Harry won’t tell.
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Offline Mira

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Re: "I can't," she said. (Spoilers for Peace Talks and Cold Case)
« Reply #8 on: July 29, 2020, 10:05:18 AM »
You know? When I read that part I understand the "I can't" as "I literally can't". So I thought Harry would need to tell them. I was surprised that Harry did not offer that in the spot. But then, the rest of the conversation...it seems clear that she thinks she may be able to tell them if she has some support.

Besides, I am not sure Molly is a fae yet. She is changing, she is becoming a fae, but I am not sure she is totally unable to lie right now. I am wondering who else knows Molly is the Lady. I mean, in the PT is clear that everybody knows she is the Winter Lady. Apparently, the white council knows. I see no reason why the Knights wouldn't. And if they know, probably a literal angel told a retired Knight. It seems...difficult to keep the secret in something like that.

  That is how I read it as well, I think it was the still human part of Molly speaking.  She knows how
much pain some of her past actions has caused them, she knows that what she is flies in the face of their Christian beliefs, it is simply too painful for her to tell them the truth.

Offline ClintACK

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Re: "I can't," she said. (Spoilers for Peace Talks and Cold Case)
« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2020, 02:19:11 PM »
One more quote, this one from Summer Knight, the very first time Harry meets Maeve.

He asks her if she arranged the murder of the Summer Knight. After he calls her on her evasions, her reply is: "I can't just give you that kind of information, Wizard Dresden. It's too powerful." She explains: "It means that if you want me to answer that question, you're going to have to pay for it. What is the answer worth to you?"

Offline Mira

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Re: "I can't," she said. (Spoilers for Peace Talks and Cold Case)
« Reply #10 on: July 29, 2020, 04:00:27 PM »
One more quote, this one from Summer Knight, the very first time Harry meets Maeve.

He asks her if she arranged the murder of the Summer Knight. After he calls her on her evasions, her reply is: "I can't just give you that kind of information, Wizard Dresden. It's too powerful." She explains: "It means that if you want me to answer that question, you're going to have to pay for it. What is the answer worth to you?"

   However by that time Mab was 99.999% Fae, with just a touch of humanity that surfaces once in a while against her will.  No doubt there are rules and she will bargain, but that wasn't what Molly was doing.  She wasn't trying to make a deal with Harry, she is just trying to get up the courage to come clean with her parents.

Offline Arjan

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Re: "I can't," she said. (Spoilers for Peace Talks and Cold Case)
« Reply #11 on: July 29, 2020, 04:13:47 PM »
One more quote, this one from Summer Knight, the very first time Harry meets Maeve.

He asks her if she arranged the murder of the Summer Knight. After he calls her on her evasions, her reply is: "I can't just give you that kind of information, Wizard Dresden. It's too powerful." She explains: "It means that if you want me to answer that question, you're going to have to pay for it. What is the answer worth to you?"
That was Maeve. For all we know she was already lying.
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Offline BrainFireBob

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Re: "I can't," she said. (Spoilers for Peace Talks and Cold Case)
« Reply #12 on: July 29, 2020, 06:13:13 PM »
That was Maeve. For all we know she was already lying.

Maeve acts bound by Fae behavior through all this book. Posdible but unlikely.

She even acts Fae at McAnally's- "drop the evil kinktress act and we'll talk" can be construed *as a bargain* that lets "real" Maeve out.

Offline Arjan

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Re: "I can't," she said. (Spoilers for Peace Talks and Cold Case)
« Reply #13 on: July 29, 2020, 07:16:58 PM »
Maeve acts bound by Fae behavior through all this book. Posdible but unlikely.

She even acts Fae at McAnally's- "drop the evil kinktress act and we'll talk" can be construed *as a bargain* that lets "real" Maeve out.
Depends on wether she was already infected. She would be mostly Behave Fae but keeping information to help nemesis would have been in character.
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Offline peregrine

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Re: "I can't," she said. (Spoilers for Peace Talks and Cold Case)
« Reply #14 on: July 29, 2020, 08:02:15 PM »
Remember what Uriel whispered in Harry's ear in response to what Mab said.  They cannot lie, but that doesn't mean they can't be wrong.  Or narrow minded in their perception about their options.  Or imposing their own perceptions on other people's actions.  Or possibly even lying to themselves (see Jim's AMA from a few years ago).