What if Eb is 100% correct about everything?

[ClintACK]

We've seen Harry as an unreliable narrator before -- in Small Favor when Mab messed with his mind and his memory, and in Changes when he omitted significant events that had been wiped from his memory, and in another way in Skin Game to keep us in the dark about his clever scheme.

What if Harry is horribly wrong about both the Svartalves and the White Court, maybe even about Thomas?

We've seen Thomas keep secrets and manipulate Harry before to a lesser degree, like in Backup (for good reasons) and in White Night (less so). Could all of the scenes about Justine being pregnant and Thomas worrying about being a father *all* be a manipulation to get Harry acting on instinct?

If Harry had come out of the apartment (after watching Svartalves terrorizing Maggie) and started a fight... or if he'd tried to rescue Thomas... either would have constituted Mab's Winter Knight blatantly shredding the Accords within the first hour of the truce for the Peace Talks. It would have been a blow to Mab almost as serious as being kicked through several walls by Ethniu.

And we see Lara throwing the sex-mojo-whammy at Harry multiple times. It doesn't work to sex-whammy him, but it certainly does change the subject when he's asking uncomfortable questions about what's going on.

Big picture: the local Powers of the Accords are getting together for a meeting to discuss dealing with the Fomor, and Harry spends the whole book dealing with a prison break that could blow up the Accords and lead to millions of innocent deaths. It's sort-of like him to get obsessed with saving family, but it's unusual for him to so completely lose the big-picture plot. How sure are we that he hasn't been mind-whammied?

Could Mab have done it to him again -- perhaps as Lara's first favor? (If she just made him extra vulnerable to Lara's influence, it would explain why she needed to so graphically warn Lara against feeding on Harry, in their first scene.)

[BrainFireBob]

Wrong how? That they're trustworthy?

For Thomas to be untrustworthy, he'd need to have WHAMMIED Harry at some point. Doesn't appear to have happened.

For Lara to be untrustworthy, she'd have to be Lara. Note: I don't think she's trustworthy, I think she wants the last male of the family available for pumping numbers after the Raith deeps.

For the Svartalves, they'd have to not keep bargains.

That said, Austri was Harry's poker buddy and their kids played together. If there was any effort to remove Harry from their property, it would violate guest right. If you wanted to induce him to break it, going after his brother is a good idea- and Austri's the one that would balk.

[morriswalters]

Lara may be dirty and she was draining Thomas rather than feeding him.  Who knows? Her first favor might have been getting Mab to shield Justine from the babies demon.  Maybe she wanted Thomas to die on the island and was pissed because Harry put him in a cell and saved his life.  This book is such a hot mess it's hard to decide. Do we know what her first favor was?

[ClintACK]

For the Svartalves, Eb's not saying that they don't keep their bargains. He's saying that they are predatory monsters and that it's horrifying that Harry is raising his daughter among them.

Harry expresses his view in this book as: "I like the svartalves. They're good people."

If all you knew about Svartalves was what we read in "B is for Bigfoot" -- which one would you agree with, Harry or Eb? How about when you see Mouse in full-on Temple Guardian mode with all the special effects fighting to keep the svartalves away from Maggie?

For Thomas, Harry being wrong just requires Thomas to have done the math and decided that Justine and the Baby are important enough to betray Harry. Maybe not enough to kill him -- just set him up and count on him being smart enough or strong enough to survive the fallout.

[Bad Alias]

We've seen Thomas keep secrets and manipulate Harry before to a lesser degree, like in Backup (for good reasons) and in White Night (less so).

Also Blood Rites.

I've wondered if Eb was right about everything ever since someone posted that Eb should have better explained to Harry why he hated WCVs so much. It reminded me of arguments about Harry should have better explained to Kim Delaney and Susan the dangers of the greater circle and the vampire party.

[Yuillegan]

Oh, I think he is. I think Harry doesn't yet appreciate the danger of the White Court. I also think Eb is made to look crazy in order to direct the readers into questioning what he is saying. When you take out who Eb is and just read the sentences (as though someone like Uriel were saying them) suddenly the White Court and Thomas etc look very shady.

[KurtinStGeorge]

Lara may be dirty and she was draining Thomas rather than feeding him.  Who knows? Her first favor might have been getting Mab to shield Justine from the babies demon.  Maybe she wanted Thomas to die on the island and was pissed because Harry put him in a cell and saved his life.  This book is such a hot mess it's hard to decide. Do we know what her first favor was?

So that would mean that Lara feigned surprise when Harry told her that Justine was pregnant and that she allowed Harry to strike her during their practice duel in order to give credence to her deception.  Lying is something Lara could do, but faking being surprised is a bit more difficult.  I'm not saying it's impossible, just that without further evidence it lacks credibility. 

I'm going to be very interested in the first few chapters of Battle Ground because with only half the story we (and by extension Harry) are missing some vital clues.  I'm also going to waiting for Harry to stop reacting and start thinking like a detective again.  For me, one of the most frustrating elements of Peace Talks was that Harry was mostly stuck reacting to events rather thinking them through.

[Arjan]

Oh, I think he is. I think Harry doesn't yet appreciate the danger of the White Court. I also think Eb is made to look crazy in order to direct the readers into questioning what he is saying. When you take out who Eb is and just read the sentences (as though someone like Uriel were saying them) suddenly the White Court and Thomas etc look very shady.

Harry knows exactly how dangerous the white court is but he thinks Thomas is worth fighting for despite the risk just like Molly was worth fighting for. The white council is more risk averse and that is why it has strict rules about who is human and who to execute. Better safe than sorry.

But in many respects Harry is more influenced by Michael than by Ebenezer.

[Yuillegan]

But does he? It seems to me that Harry is making the error of assuming he has all the facts and understands them. With incomplete data it's difficult to really predict anything. The less data you have, the less accurate your prediction is likely to be.

Eb's warning is essentially that; you cannot expect the WCV to act reliably because they are essentially unreliable. Harry is as guilty of confirmation bias as anyone, and he has less information than Eb does on the White Court.

However, I will grant that everything Eb said and was warning about was prior to his knowledge of Thomas as his own grandson. He obviously is also rather racist when it comes to them so it's clear it's hard for him to see them as anything but.

Harry may be more similar in his values to Michael, but his behavior overall has been more similar to Eb's. It's only recently that has changed. Regardless, his values have little to do with his ability to predict the White Court.

The whole point is that they are very good at getting humans to let their guard down. It's not all come hithers and mental whammys. They only seem to be that obvious because when it comes to mortals that's easy for them. But in terms of the long game, I think Harry underestimates them.

Harry's main ability to be unpredictable is his wild card nature. But in saying that, I would say there are many fans who would be able to reliably predict his behavior. Not everything of course. Not even Jim always knows what Harry will do. That's sort of the point. But many actions Harry has taken have been predicted. Most of his general behavior in the early books is fairly predictable. Especially when you look at the whole. Of course we all get surprised now and again. In fact, it's highly likely that Jim builds certain patterns in Dresden's behavior in order to be able to surprise us.

[Arjan]

But does he? It seems to me that Harry is making the error of assuming he has all the facts and understands them. With incomplete data it's difficult to really predict anything. The less data you have, the less accurate your prediction is likely to be.

Eb's warning is essentially that; you cannot expect the WCV to act reliably because they are essentially unreliable. Harry is as guilty of confirmation bias as anyone, and he has less information than Eb does on the White Court.

He probably has more. He knows what his mother’s death curse did for example. He has seen club zero for what it is. Ebenezer probably does not know about the true love protection either. Because of the illusion and what was told he thought Harry was making out with Lara and that triggered an even more violent reaction.

However, I will grant that everything Eb said and was warning about was prior to his knowledge of Thomas as his own grandson. He obviously is also rather racist when it comes to them so it's clear it's hard for him to see them as anything but.

He is probably racist with all things not human. There is a racist streak in the white council though it is not just based on some superficial colorings.

Harry may be more similar in his values to Michael, but his behavior overall has been more similar to Eb's. It's only recently that has changed. Regardless, his values have little to do with his ability to predict the White Court.

He must have a serious reason to take the risk but he is prepared to do so. Probably because he was a warlock himself. A white court vampire is not that different from a highly specialized warlock.

But they have all killed.

The whole point is that they are very good at getting humans to let their guard down. It's not all come hithers and mental whammys. They only seem to be that obvious because when it comes to mortals that's easy for them. But in terms of the long game, I think Harry underestimates them.

You can always Think so but he also is always on his guard with them. He just is not in a place we’re he can always avoid them.

Harry's main ability to be unpredictable is his wild card nature. But in saying that, I would say there are many fans who would be able to reliably predict his behavior. Not everything of course. Not even Jim always knows what Harry will do. That's sort of the point. But many actions Harry has taken have been predicted. Most of his general behavior in the early books is fairly predictable. Especially when you look at the whole. Of course we all get surprised now and again. In fact, it's highly likely that Jim builds certain patterns in Dresden's behavior in order to be able to surprise us.

Without patters people can not even try to predict you. But there is a reason Karin finds it much easier to predict Harry than Nicodemus does.

[Mira]

Also Blood Rites.

I've wondered if Eb was right about everything ever since someone posted that Eb should have better explained to Harry why he hated WCVs so much. It reminded me of arguments about Harry should have better explained to Kim Delaney and Susan the dangers of the greater circle and the vampire party.

They seem alike but they are not, because  the motivation is so different.   The big one is family, for a long time Thomas was Harry's only family, his brother, and he behaved as a brother.  So Harry isn't going to be rational about the dangers of the vamps.  He should have told Eb earlier who Thomas was, now is a bit late.  Eb should have been honest with Harry from the time he first came to live with him as a sixteen year old kid..  Being Blackstaff and his "orders" concerning Harry I am sure had a lot to do with it, but I wonder how much of that was merely an excuse?

[vultur]

Well, Eb can't literally be 100% correct, because we have a Thomas POV in "Backup" - Thomas has lied to Harry about things before, but we do know he actually cares about Harry and is not just playing a long game.

But I think Eb has a pretty good point about the White Court in general - Lara even admits in PT that they can't completely control their Hunger. They are not safe beings to hang around with, even if they don't actually have bad intentions toward you, especially if you might end up looking like prey.

The mind control thing... I dunno. It certainly could be, but it doesn't feel right to me. I kind of think that with the things he learned in GS and CD about the soul and self, identity, will etc., Harry wouldn't be as vulnerable to that sort of thing as he was before dying and being reborn. But I don't really have much to base that on.

[vultur]

The whole point is that they are very good at getting humans to let their guard down. It's not all come hithers and mental whammys. They only seem to be that obvious because when it comes to mortals that's easy for them. But in terms of the long game, I think Harry underestimates them.

I dunno. Lara is really politically competent in ways outside her specific magical powers, and now that she leads the Court, their strategy reflects that.

Thomas isn't really a "long game" mastermind, though from Backup he's probably a bit better at being indirect and thinking things through than Harry (before SG, anyway).

The Skavis/Malvora opposition in WN is pretty unimpressive, and their plan isn't much good (IMO Cowl was playing them all along, I don't think they were actually intended to succeed.)

And the other Raiths (not Thomas/Lara) who show up in TC aren't particularly impressive.

[BrainFireBob]

He probably has more. He knows what his mother’s death curse did for example. He has seen club zero for what it is. Ebenezer probably does not know about the true love protection either. Because of the illusion and what was told he thought Harry was making out with Lara and that triggered an even more violent reaction.He is probably racist with all things not human. There is a racist streak in the white council though it is not just based on some superficial colorings.He must have a serious reason to take the risk but he is prepared to do so. Probably because he was a warlock himself. A white court vampire is not that different from a highly specialized warlock.

But they have all killed.You can always Think so but he also is always on his guard with them. He just is not in a place we’re he can always avoid them.

Without patters people can not even try to predict you. But there is a reason Karin finds it much easier to predict Harry than Nicodemus does.

The interesting predictive character is Mavra, who appears to get Harry very well.

[Bad Alias]

Harry knows exactly how dangerous the white court is but he thinks Thomas is worth fighting for despite the risk just like Molly was worth fighting for. The white council is more risk averse and that is why it has strict rules about who is human and who to execute. Better safe than sorry.

But in many respects Harry is more influenced by Michael than by Ebenezer.

If there is a central theme of the Dresden Files, I think it's all about this conflict.

I don't think racist is the right word to use when speaking of something that's not entirely human or just not human at all. Prejudiced is probably the most accurate. As in prejudging. And it's probably a pretty correct course of action, too.

They seem alike but they are not, because  the motivation is so different.   The big one is family, for a long time Thomas was Harry's only family, his brother, and he behaved as a brother.  So Harry isn't going to be rational about the dangers of the vamps.  He should have told Eb earlier who Thomas was, now is a bit late.  Eb should have been honest with Harry from the time he first came to live with him as a sixteen year old kid..  Being Blackstaff and his "orders" concerning Harry I am sure had a lot to do with it, but I wonder how much of that was merely an excuse?

I'm not saying they're exactly alike, but I am saying that maybe Eb is right that Harry shouldn't be as careless as he is with the WCV and no matter what Eb says, Harry isn't going to listen. Just like Harry was right and Susan and Kim wouldn't listen to Harry no matter what he said. I'm not saying Harry is ignoring Eb because he's career minded or that he thinks Eb doesn't have much more experience than him.