What if Eb is 100% correct about everything?

[Arjan]

The problem with Ebenezer is not that he is right or wrong. The problem is that he can not have a decent chat about it.

[morriswalters]

No person that you know, under almost any condition, would break an accused murderer from out of jail.  It isn't a rational response.  You can never know the mind of another or know their guilt or innocence.  And if you did it, you could expect to end up as an outlaw, even if he was later proven to be not guilty.  Family is important, but Harry has more at stake with a daughter, then a single man. This is all well and good if Harry's destiny is to become King of the world, but kinda shortsighted if not.

I don't know what Jim is trying to accomplish but his motivations are kinda lame.  I could see going to the wall while Thomas hangs out in a cell. Instead he has the Swart whatevers execute Thomas with a slow death, even though they say he is awaiting judgement. It's just plain stupid and doesn't hang together very well.

And why is Harry all of a sudden having abandonment issues?  He's picked a piss poor time to get all angsty about being left in a lurch. Hell Thomas should be angry, his mother left him after making sure he was a serial killer by birth.

Putting that aside for the moment, having Thomas suffer the pain of all the many that he has hurt has been something that has been needed.  As sympathetic as he is he has committed murder multiple times and being Harry's brother doesn't make him fit company for a child.  Eb is right, down the line and Harry is wrong.  Lara is a 1000 year old murderess who has had to have killed hundreds.  And even she admits she can't always control it.  Harry and Jim are in a fantasy.  In the real world Lara and Thomas would be hunted by their prey and exterminated.

[Arjan]

No person that you know, under almost any condition, would break an accused murderer from out of jail.  It isn't a rational response. 

That basically depends on your trust in the law and the state behind it. It would be pretty normal behavior if you live in a failed state and your family/clan/tribe is more important than who is a the moment oppressing you and yours.

Or it depends on the nature of the state. Or actually states because what Lara is really doing is freeing a captive from another state. One of her people is accused of murder in another state and hold captive in a third one.

This could be seen as an act of war but even in the real world it would probably not result in a war but in a diplomatic crisis that can be resolved.

You can never know the mind of another or know their guilt or innocence.  And if you did it, you could expect to end up as an outlaw, even if he was later proven to be not guilty. 

I think you are thinking modern state here. Mab knows what he is doing and as long as he does not embarrass her he will probably have both Lara and Mab supporting her.

Family is important, but Harry has more at stake with a daughter, then a single man. This is all well and good if Harry's destiny is to become King of the world, but kinda shortsighted if not.

There may be fallout for Harry but strictly speaking the situation is much like Skin Game, it is primarily Lara’s problem.

Our legal view of the situation is distorted because of Harry’s emotional investment in it but he had to help Lara because of what Mab did.

But really Harry had no choice. Harry wanted to do it so he did not see it that way but he had to help.

I don't know what Jim is trying to accomplish but his motivations are kinda lame.  I could see going to the wall while Thomas hangs out in a cell. Instead he has the Swart whatevers execute Thomas with a slow death, even though they say he is awaiting judgement. It's just plain stupid and doesn't hang together very well.

You can not really expect them to feed his hunger especially in his current state and for all we know he was very likely already far gone when he attacked.

And why is Harry all of a sudden having abandonment issues? 

Sudden 

He's picked a piss poor time to get all angsty about being left in a lurch. Hell Thomas should be angry, his mother left him after making sure he was a serial killer by birth.

We do not know the circumstances. She might not have had that much of a choice.

Putting that aside for the moment, having Thomas suffer the pain of all the many that he has hurt has been something that has been needed.  As sympathetic as he is he has committed murder multiple times and being Harry's brother doesn't make him fit company for a child.  Eb is right, down the line and Harry is wrong.  Lara is a 1000 year old murderess who has had to have killed hundreds.  And even she admits she can't always control it.  Harry and Jim are in a fantasy.  In the real world Lara and Thomas would be hunted by their prey and exterminated.

And rapists. Being irresistible by magical means might be an adolescent fantasy but I think the law would see it differently if they knew how it worked.

Of course and that is why they don’t want the masquerade to end.

[Mira]

No person that you know, under almost any condition, would break an accused murderer from out of jail.  It isn't a rational response.  You can never know the mind of another or know their guilt or innocence.  And if you did it, you could expect to end up as an outlaw, even if he was later proven to be not guilty.  Family is important, but Harry has more at stake with a daughter, then a single man. This is all well and good if Harry's destiny is to become King of the world, but kinda shortsighted if not.

   In the real world? No.  Well, maybe if you knew for a fact that they were innocent and were in danger of dying in jail.  Having said that, very few families have the means or the power to orchestrate a jail break.  So no, it isn't rational, except Harry is Warden of Demonreach, that is where he deposited Thomas in stasis, he isn't going anywhere.  In a sense you might say he merely transferred the prisoner to where he thinks he will be safe from being executed without a fair trial.  If he is as irrational or really short sighted as you suggest, he'd have just turned Thomas over to Lara.  Let her see to it that he gets fed and recovered, do you doubt that she has the connections, even if they could track him, that she couldn't keep him safe for some time?

I don't know what Jim is trying to accomplish but his motivations are kinda lame.  I could see going to the wall while Thomas hangs out in a cell. Instead he has the Swart whatevers execute Thomas with a slow death, even though they say he is awaiting judgement. It's just plain stupid and doesn't hang together very well.

It is my least favorite aspect of the whole book, which is too bad because it takes up a huge percentage of Peace Talks.  All the while what do we know about Thomas?  Justine is pregnant, Thomas is worried about the Hunger eating her while she carries the child.. Then BOOM!  Thomas attempts an assassination, someone dies as a result who is a friend of Harry's.  Thomas is beaten with in an inch of his life, which is weird when you think about it, normally if he is topped off he is super human and that sort of thing doesn't happen.  The the rest of the book is dominated by the efforts to spring Thomas, which is really a huge distraction.  In a sense unless there is stuff in the next book that we don't know about, that whole story line really dumbs down the whole book in my opinion.  That could be just sour grapes on my part because I am disappointed. I was hoping for some real political fireworks between the Accord members before the big Fomor entrance.

And why is Harry all of a sudden having abandonment issues?  He's picked a piss poor time to get all angsty about being left in a lurch. Hell Thomas should be angry, his mother left him after making sure he was a serial killer by birth.

He has always had those, but suddenly he gets a severe case of a wizard childhood illness? Another thing that was more of a distraction than anything else.  Not to say my opinion could change if it leads to some reveal or another.

Putting that aside for the moment, having Thomas suffer the pain of all the many that he has hurt has been something that has been needed.  As sympathetic as he is he has committed murder multiple times and being Harry's brother doesn't make him fit company for a child.  Eb is right, down the line and Harry is wrong.  Lara is a 1000 year old murderess who has had to have killed hundreds.  And even she admits she can't always control it.  Harry and Jim are in a fantasy.  In the real world Lara and Thomas would be hunted by their prey and exterminated.

Yeah, well, I am thinking back to the end of Turn Coat where after his stay with Shaggy, Thomas said Lara was right, and was going full White Court.  He wasn't even attempting to be human anymore, when he looks at people all he sees is kine.. He was very cold and matter of fact about it too to Harry.  Now, being with Justine may have mitigated that somewhat, but he was with her then.

[ClintACK]

No person that you know, under almost any condition, would break an accused murderer from out of jail.  It isn't a rational response.  You can never know the mind of another or know their guilt or innocence.  And if you did it, you could expect to end up as an outlaw, even if he was later proven to be not guilty.  Family is important, but Harry has more at stake with a daughter, then a single man. This is all well and good if Harry's destiny is to become King of the world, but kinda shortsighted if not.

Really good point -- especially given that the book opens with Harry giving Thomas exactly that lecture.

[Arjan]

Really good point -- especially given that the book opens with Harry giving Thomas exactly that lecture.

Or maybe a good reason not to anger Mab by not helping Lara and paying back to favor Mab owed to her.

[vultur]

Or maybe a good reason not to anger Mab by not helping Lara and paying back to favor Mab owed to her.

Right. In supernatural-world-politics/Accords terms, Harry is not actually responsible for the jailbreak; he is acting under Mab's orders, and Mab has passed that authority to Lara as part of the faerie law of exchange of favors.

Harry isn't going to become a supernatural outlaw by doing it. Not doing it would be a much greater threat (because Mab would retaliate).

This is one reason I think Eb is clearly irrational when he confronts Harry flying on a boulder when they get on the boat -- his whole "you'll be an outlaw" beginning is just flat wrong. Even if Harry gets kicked off the Council, he's still Winter Knight. That's a recognized position with an Accords nation.

[ClintACK]

Being Winter Knight wouldn't make him less of an outlaw to the White Council, it would just make him a politically-untouchable outlaw.

Compare to Hannah Asher, the warden-killing warlock. If the Denarians were still Accord members, she'd still be a warlock and an outlaw even after she took up Lasciel's coin. She'd just be a trickier political issue.

I think the "outlaw" issue for Eb is that he's the White Council's hitman. If the White Council decided that taking out Harry Dresden was more important than not offending Mab, Eb's the one they'd task with doing it. And it's dredging up his painful memories of the days after Harry was arrested for Justin's murder.

[vultur]

Being Winter Knight wouldn't make him less of an outlaw to the White Council, it would just make him a politically-untouchable outlaw.

Well, he could still be an outlaw to the White Council, sure, but not to the broader Accorded supernatural world of Accorded nations.

The point of outlawing someone, historically, was to deprive them of support. If they've got their own nation... not much point. It would be more like exiling him from the Council.

He wouldn't lose being Warden of Demonreach, either. (Even if the White Council historically 'claims' Demonreach, Demonreach's bond is with Harry specifically.)

And  -- assuming Thomas survives the next book -- he wouldn't lose his family connection to House Raith either.

While Harry is operating as a Warden (a White Council Warden - not Warden of Demonreach), the Council has influence over him. If they kick him out... they don't. And what does Harry actually lose? The Council generally creates problems for Harry, not actual help.

Compare to Hannah Asher, the warden-killing warlock. If the Denarians were still Accord members, she'd still be a warlock and an outlaw even after she took up Lasciel's coin. She'd just be a trickier political issue.

The difference was that Ascher wasn't known to be a Denarian, that was secret; Harry is known to be Winter Knight throughout the supernatural world.

Back when the Denarians were Accords members, the Wardens would have stopped hunting Ascher if she'd announced herself as a Denarian - the same way they stopped hunting Molly when she became Winter Lady.

I think the "outlaw" issue for Eb is that he's the White Council's hitman. If the White Council decided that taking out Harry Dresden was more important than not offending Mab,

They'd never do that; offending Mab would be a threat to the existence of the Council itself.

They could kill Harry for something he'd done unrelated to Winter; that would probably be politically OK.

But killing him in a way that would offend Mab -- say because he'd betrayed the White Council by becoming Winter Knight -- would be inviting horrible retaliation on the entire Council.

[Bad Alias]

No person that you know, under almost any condition, would break an accused murderer from out of jail.

It wasn't that uncommon historically. Not even just 100 years ago in America.

RE: Outlaw: Harry's world is one of power more than rule of law. I don't think being an outlaw would matter too much for someone in Harry's position. There's a lot of talk in PT about all the people/things not taking shots at Harry because he's in the Council. I'm not so sure about that.

[vultur]

RE: Outlaw: Harry's world is one of power more than rule of law. I don't think being an outlaw would matter too much for someone in Harry's position. There's a lot of talk in PT about all the people/things not taking shots at Harry because he's in the Council. I'm not so sure about that.

Yeah. Exactly. This whole line of thought seems suspicious. The Council doesn't really protect Harry that much, and to the degree they ever did, Harry's role as Winter Knight and reputation as the guy who killed off the entire Red Court would more than make up for it.

Especially Eb's comments about the Svartalves killing Harry for protecting Thomas.

In that case, Harry is acting under Mab's orders (through her favor to Lara). The Svartalves have no basis under the Accords to go after Harry for that.

And anyway... Harry's dealt with worse enemies than the Svartalves before. He'd have to live somewhere else, but once he was off their grounds, I really don't think that having them as enemies would be worse for Harry than, say, having the Red Court as enemies. Except that Harry has more resources now than he did between GP and Changes.

[Bad Alias]

Harry's dealt with worse enemies than the Svartalves before.

I'm not so sure about how much of a problem Svartalves would be. We've never really seen them in action. We've just repeatedly heard no one wants to mess with them.

[ClintACK]

Re: Harry being protected by the threat of White Council vengeance...

When he was dead for a year or so, did the White Council investigate at all?

[Arjan]

I'm not so sure about how much of a problem Svartalves would be. We've never really seen them in action. We've just repeatedly heard no one wants to mess with them.

We also heard that Mab has excellent relations with them. Lara seems to think she can smooth things out later and she is responsible for everything Harry does. It really depends on what Jim wants to happen.

[morriswalters]

@Bad Alias
Yeah I know, might makes right.

@vultur
The White Council went to war over Harry, even if it was kicking and screaming, and Jim has Harry call this out in the dialog.

@ClintACK
When we last see the Council in Changes they are at the edge of civil war, some of the young Wardens are locked up as is Luccio.  Maybe they were too busy to do much in terms of investigation. And Jim simply ignores that.

More generally, a suspicious mind might suspect that everybody is being manipulated in some fashion.  Everybody is just off.