Murphy

[Mira]

   Okay, the big thing about Murphy has always been what a smart fighter she is.  That her advice
to Harry has always been smart, she is called a warrior..  Well, maybe not so much.. 

In Skin Game she went by her rules and not those of the Sword, broke it and got herself pretty
broken.  Then as now, perhaps love has fried her brain a bit?  What I am talking about is on
the final couple of pages of Peace Talks on the boat.  She is in so much pain she says she can
hardly move.  Harry tells her that a good warrior knows when it is best to avoid a fight.  He suggests
that there are a group of people, the paranetters who are going to be very scared and need wise
council and protecting, that they need her.  She objects to that says she won't sit out this fight, and insists that she is going to join him in the fighting.  Harry doesn't argue the point, because he knows he cannot change her.. However what she is doing isn't really brave, it certainly isn't smart, it is very selfish and could get her killed, more to the point get Harry killed because he now cannot fully concentrate on the enemy, he has to worry about her.. Oh I know the argument, Murphy has always taken care of herself and Harry too.. But now the odds are that she cannot and there are people who do need her, especially when things get really hairy.   So this kills the idea that if she never improves physically she will be happy running the show from behind a desk.  No, she won't.  She is good at
fighting, and perhaps it is simply a matter of her that love has once again addled her brain, but she is no warrior, and she is very selfish..  This is may be heavy foreshadowing of her doom..

[Arjan]

If Freydis says she is a warrior then she is one. Apparently she is hot as well.

[Arjan]

I think I will leave the full explanation to the Murphy Valkyrie crowd but her behaviour is exactly what a good viking warrior would do. Probably why the Einherjar and the Valkyrie like her so much.

[Mira]

If Freydis says she is a warrior then she is one. Apparently she is hot as well.

I know, but if she acts like she says she is going to act, she is no warrior, she is just stupid and selfish. 
It is true, Murphy is very brave, but it takes more than that.  Let's not forget that some of the "warriors" that Freydis halls off to Valhalla are berserkers, they are mindless fighters.. 

I think I will leave the full explanation to the Murphy Valkyrie crowd but her behaviour is exactly what a good viking warrior would do. Probably why the Einherjar and the Valkyrie like her so much.

Yeah, but in the end they were defeated by a cool head and a brain..

[Arjan]

I know, but if she acts like she says she is going to act, she is no warrior, she is just stupid and selfish.

According to what definition of warrior? She risks her life to protect others because of who she is. She can help so she does. According to other definitions of warrior she does exactly what she should do.

Or to put it in even more pre christian terms she values her own life maybe less than her reputation, what she does with it and how she will be remembered. She goes to battle because she does not want to be the person who did not. Very much like what Lea said about shame. That is something all the Valkyries and Einherjaren would understand. That is a warrior mindset.

A warrior is not the same as a soldier. Thoug it also fits in with Uriel that your soul is more important than your life.

It is true, Murphy is very brave, but it takes more than that.  Let's not forget that some of the "warriors" that Freydis halls off to Valhalla are berserkers, they are mindless fighters.. 
Yeah, but in the end they were defeated by a cool head and a brain..

Jim clearly shows that Harry still needed Murphy's brain. The plan to get Thomas was her plan for example. Actually he mostly got her around just for that brain. Not that different from Skin Game really and even though that ended badly for her she was still good to have around.

And the all vikings are mindless berserkers is a parody. Even easy inflammable guys like Egil skalagrimson were far from mindless. A good brain was valued also in the Viking era.

And even berserker does not mean stupid. It just means you can flip a switch. Much like Gard did in the short story. In the dresdenverse it is probably a supernatural ability that just makes you a better fighter.

And they were not really defeated. They became something else. To be more precisely their kings used christianity as a tool to expand their power, legitimise their autocratic rule and stamp out dissent and to change their people into more obedient subjects. It is fairly well documented.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Heimskringla-History-Norway-Snorri-Sturluson/dp/0292730616

[Mira]

   You are missing the point I think.  Murphy for all of her good traits is totally wrong here. 

Or to put it in even more pre christian terms she values her own life maybe less than her reputation, what she does with it and how she will be remembered. She goes to battle because she does not want to be the person who did not. Very much like what Lea said about shame. That is something all the Valkyries and Einherjaren would understand. That is a warrior mindset.

That is a nice romantic way of looking at it, but it also gets people killed besides herself.  Any other time fine, all of that holds true, but she is injured now.  That makes her the weak link in the chain, the team is only as strong as it's weakest link.  The job Harry suggested for her had honor, it needs to be done.  He may have suggested it to keep her safe,  but at the same time if the shit really hits the fan and it looks like it is, those people will need a cool head and someone with the abilities to
protect them, actually the possible future of the supernatural world may depend on them.

She got lucky in a quick surprise move with Freydis, but what if it had gone on for even a few minutes more?  She was moving very slow across Lara's back yard after that.  Harry won't be as
effective because he will be worrying about her.

According to what definition of warrior? She risks her life to protect others because of who she is. She can help so she does. According to other definitions of warrior she does exactly what she should do.

But that is the whole point, Harry gave her a job with in her current physical limits to protect others that really do need protecting.. But she rejected it because she wants to be out in the action, that isn't being a warrior, that is being stupid...  Not just stupid, but puts herself in a position of getting others killed..  Her heart might be in the right place, but her head isn't and neither is her body.

[ClintACK]

It's not stupidity -- it's Pride.

Murphy really, really needs a good talking-to from Michael.

[Arjan]

It's not stupidity -- it's Pride.

Murphy really, really needs a good talking-to from Michael.

It is not that. It is like training with the Einherjaren just rubbed of like Molly training with Lea made her more Sidhe.

It like with every choice Karrin had to make Jim asked himself what would a viking warrior do?

 

[Mira]

It's not stupidity -- it's Pride.

Murphy really, really needs a good talking-to from Michael.

 Yup, that is her flaw and her sin, that is what got her body in it's present shape to begin with.  She took pride in her judgement verses that of the Almighty, got not only a Sword broken but her body as well.

It like with every choice Karrin had to make Jim asked himself what would a viking warrior do?

A good Viking warrior wouldn't do stupid..  Her present course is stupid.. Harry knows, he also knows he cannot stop her, he also knows how it will end..

[Arjan]

A good Viking warrior wouldn't do stupid..  Her present course is stupid.. Harry knows, he also knows he cannot stop her, he also knows how it will end..

A real viking warrior would. Her current course leads directly to walhalla. This is not stupid if it is what you want. It is about what you think important.

She wants to help, she wants to experience, she wants to live even if that could mean a shorter life. That is not stupid, that is just different priorities.

Besides Harry would have messed it up already without her.

[Mira]

A real viking warrior would. Her current course leads directly to walhalla. This is not stupid if it is what you want. It is about what you think important.

How nice for her, but if she takes lives with her because physically she isn't up to a full battle.. If that is what is important to her, so much for the vision back in Blood Rites Harry of her as an avenging angel.

She wants to help, she wants to experience, she wants to live even if that could mean a shorter life. That is not stupid, that is just different priorities.

That's pretty selfish when she could be saving lives and being the weak link in a battle could cost lives..  It isn't about her life, it is about those around her.

esides Harry would have messed it up already without her.

That is neither here nor there as they say...

[Oracle of IHOP]

Yup, that is her flaw and her sin, that is what got her body in it's present shape to begin with.  She took pride in her judgement verses that of the Almighty, got not only a Sword broken but her body as well.

A good Viking warrior wouldn't do stupid..  Her present course is stupid.. Harry knows, he also knows he cannot stop her, he also knows how it will end..

Perhaps she knows how she wants to go out?

A lot of people who have been fighting a long time, including people I served with, would much rather go out feet first. When you have been in the life long enough it sort of limits your options in ways people who have never been there cannot understand.

Fighting is what she knows. She fought to protect Chicago - her home. She fights to protect Harry. Murphy fights to protect what she loves and is willing to risk or even sacrifice her life to do so.

No greater love . . .

[Wolfeyes]

Before this book, I was leaning against the Murphy->Valkyrie route but Murphy's priorities and thinking makes me think that even IF she doesn't go that way, she's more than primed to continue to be aligned with that group in some way. It's like Arjan says about Molly getting primed to be aligned with the Fae.

Murphy's always been respected as a warrior and for her heroic spirit. Freydis doesn't go "Wow Murphy you're so dumb and useless and you're just going to get yourself killed or weigh Harry down lol". The one acknowledgement we get is Murphy proving herself to be a warrior in their eyes and being called a Warrior by a Valkyrie herself. Her path might not be right for some people (or some readers), but it's a path acknowledged by the narrative to be a valid one.

In another story, sure, those traits would possibly be setup to something tragic and Bad. Within PT and the Dresden-verse, the narrative respects Murphy for it and it's pretty unlikely the narrative will suddenly turn around and go Murphy's just selfish and stupid, especially when she continues to contribute in significant ways to what's going on than if she'd just stayed in her house and healed. If she goes, it won't be because Oh No, Hubris — it'll likely be She Did the Right thing.

But I doubt Jim will just off her for cheap angst, either, at least not permanently at this point. Jim's usually not trigger happy for the sake of it and is pretty good at finding other ways to make use of characters (Michael and iirc he acknowledged somewhere Molly could've gotten the shank at some point before she developed the way she did).

[Mira]

Perhaps she knows how she wants to go out?

A lot of people who have been fighting a long time, including people I served with, would much rather go out feet first. When you have been in the life long enough it sort of limits your options in ways people who have never been there cannot understand.

Fighting is what she knows. She fought to protect Chicago - her home. She fights to protect Harry. Murphy fights to protect what she loves and is willing to risk or even sacrifice her life to do so.

No greater love . . .

  I get all of that, but what about the defenseless?   Does it come down to glory? No glory it guarding  some paranet members, something she could do well considering her physical condition.  But by all means go for glory..

Murphy's always been respected as a warrior and for her heroic spirit. Freydis doesn't go "Wow Murphy you're so dumb and useless and you're just going to get yourself killed or weigh Harry down lol". The one acknowledgement we get is Murphy proving herself to be a warrior in their eyes and being called a Warrior by a Valkyrie herself. Her path might not be right for some people (or some readers), but it's a path acknowledged by the narrative to be a valid one.

What she said was that wasn't her time to die...  And no, actually Harry hasn't talked to Freydis
about how effective as a warrior Murphy is going to be in a full battle.. 

In another story, sure, those traits would possibly be setup to something tragic and Bad. Within PT and the Dresden-verse, the narrative respects Murphy for it and it's pretty unlikely the narrative will suddenly turn around and go Murphy's just selfish and stupid, especially when she continues to contribute in significant ways to what's going on than if she'd just stayed in her house and healed. If she goes, it won't be because Oh No, Hubris — it'll likely be She Did the Right thing.

No one is saying she should stay in her house and heal, but hey sometimes that is best for everyone.  Alternate roles for a physically impaired Murphy have long been debated at this site, and guarding and leading the paranet when they could very well be in danger is one of them.. Full of honor and before it is over might require a great deal of bravery..  I go back to the weak link in the chain, the team is only as strong as it's weakest link.. Thus everyone else on that team have to look after that weak link.  That weak link can also cause the team to break..  A good warrior knows that.. 

Before this book, I was leaning against the Murphy->Valkyrie route but Murphy's priorities and thinking makes me think that even IF she doesn't go that way, she's more than primed to continue to be aligned with that group in some way. It's like Arjan says about Molly getting primed to be aligned with the Fae.

Or reading this book, she is being primed for death.. 

[Wolfeyes]

What she said was that wasn't her time to die...  And no, actually Harry hasn't talked to Freydis
about how effective as a warrior Murphy is going to be in a full battle..

No. Freydis briefly doubts Murphy, Murphy manages to pull one up on her and get gun under her chin, and Freydis then refers to Murphy as a Warrior and propositions her specifically (and even later tells Harry that if he wants to sleep with her, it'd take drinks first but if he brings Murphy along then Freydis would be onboard immediately).

The narrative and Freydis view her as a warrior to respect, even if you don't.

No one is saying she should stay in her house and heal, but hey sometimes that is best for everyone.  Alternate roles for a physically impaired Murphy have long been debated at this site, and guarding and leading the paranet when they could very well be in danger is one of them.. Full of honor and before it is over might require a great deal of bravery..  I go back to the weak link in the chain, the team is only as strong as it's weakest link.. Thus everyone else on that team have to look after that weak link.  That weak link can also cause the team to break..  A good warrior knows that..

Yes. So weak chain. That's why she played a big role in getting the plan working, came up with a way to deal with their tails, was able to help talk Harry through his crisis after his confrontation with Eb, and was able to get Freydis to back off when she attacked her .

At that point, the narrative seems more geared towards the idea of debunking Murphy as just poor weak and damaged Murphy who can't do anything. It and Harry acknowledge she has limits and that's why he's afraid for her, but it also goes on to show her pulling her weight where she can. At that point, the only thing that's changed is where she's pulling it.

Or reading this book, she is being primed for death..

And then revival as a Valkyrie  . Either way, her death if it happens isn't going to be played as all her fault for being stupid and selfish based on the narrative we're being told.