Author Topic: "Not the right time to tell you," a mentor says to Harry  (Read 3023 times)

Offline cleoslemonade

  • Participant
  • *
  • Posts: 10
    • View Profile
"Not the right time to tell you," a mentor says to Harry
« on: July 18, 2020, 05:56:20 AM »
Minor Peace Talks spoilers to follow.

Isn't it annoying when Harry is trying to figure something out, but a mentor figure has a vague reason why they can't tell him?

Examples:
Quote
In Turn Coat, (in Ebeneezer's journal entry), Rashid tells Ebeneezer not to tell Harry about Demonreach, because it won't make a difference?

PEACE TALKS EXAMPLE:
(click to show/hide)
What are other examples of this happening in the series?
I'm sure there's some with Uriel, but the reasons that he can't tell Harry things are probably more cosmic limitationsy than what is restricting others.

I understand the Doylist reason why people don't just tell Harry stuff about being a starborn/demonreach: narrative tension, mystery, etc.

But what could be the in-universe reason for why people won't tell him things? What is keeping these mentor figures from telling? Why is it a bad idea?

In extension, what is the right time and person to tell Harry these things? Is there some kind of starborn tutorial that he'll get in the future, and they don't want to spoil it?  ;)

Some ideas for why this could be happening:

FORESIGHT:
It reminds me to the Harry/Bob conversation in Proven Guilty, where the Gatekeeper has given Harry a vague note. Bob explains that it is vague likely so it doesn't mess too much with the timestream, as the Gatekeeper got the knowledge from the future.
If the people like Ebeneezer, River Shoulders, and the Gatekeeper got their knowledge from the future, this could work. However, that's sketchy because that's a lot of specific knowledge that a lot of people have.

ANTI-SELF-FULFILLING PROPHECY:
A self fulfilling prophecy is when you hearing the prophecy causes the prophecy. (You hear a prophecy that your son will kill you so you lock up your son, thus making him angry enough to kill you, which he does.)
Perhaps the mentors are worried that if Harry knows about the starborn prophecy, he'll just end up messing it up and not fulfilling it.
For example, it gives him motivation to turn evil? It will scare him into giving up before he even starts if he knows how hard it will be?

STRICT NEED-TO-KNOW CONSPIRACY:
The secrets of starbornness are protected by a conspiracy? The more people who know about it, the more risk it is. So, it's very strictly need-to-know.
That's hard to believe, because wouldn't being Starborn be the definition of someone who needs to know about being a starborn?
This could work if they are unsure if he's really a starborn/the warden of Demonreach, etc. The evidence points that way, but they are still waiting for it to be 100% confirmed before they tell them something.
However, that's hard to believe because it would make Ebeneezer's actions in Peace Talks very confusing:
(click to show/hide)
The conspiracy could make a little more sense if the people brought into it were required to take a magic oath of secrecy. Like they literally can't tell Harry any more, even if they want to and think he should know (similar to the restrictions we see on Lily/Fix in Proven Guilty).

What are your ideas? Why won't people tell Harry things?
And what is the thing that they won't tell him?

Offline Bad Alias

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2208
    • View Profile
Re: "Not the right time to tell you," a mentor says to Harry
« Reply #1 on: July 21, 2020, 02:53:24 AM »
But what could be the in-universe reason for why people won't tell him things? What is keeping these mentor figures from telling? Why is it a bad idea?
About Demonreach specifically, the Gatekeeper thinks it wouldn't make a difference if Harry was told, so why bother I guess. Jim has said that older wizards are big fans of "you need to learn it for yourself." One reason could be because some things you can't be told. You have to figure it out for yourself. Another reason could be because that if you can't figure it out yourself you don't deserve to know or you won't be responsible enough to use that knowledge.

Offline Vairelome

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 904
    • View Profile
Re: "Not the right time to tell you," a mentor says to Harry
« Reply #2 on: July 21, 2020, 03:25:29 AM »
Another possible angle is that the Starborn breaks a lot of the usual rules by his specialness, and even the wise old mentors don't know where all the limits are, and they want Harry to be able to take full advantage of "I didn't know that wasn't possible, so I did it anyway!"  (Granted, this angle seems a bit out of character for Eb, but also, if Harry had known what Demonreach was, he might well not have punched Alfred in the nose and become the Warden.)

From a Doylist angle, Jim has used this angle in the Codex Alera--without giving specific spoilers, there's a point where a character does a thing, and it's pointed out immediately afterwards that he must have slept through that lecture in school, because the dominant academic theory is that said thing won't work.

Offline Second Aristh

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 3819
  • Numeromancer
    • View Profile
Re: "Not the right time to tell you," a mentor says to Harry
« Reply #3 on: July 21, 2020, 04:18:34 AM »
It could also be dangerous for Harry to know of some details beforehand.  Sorta of Sword of Truth style.
We shall not fail or falter, we shall not weaken or tire...Give us the tools, and we will finish the job.--Winston Churchill

Offline vultur

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 3942
    • View Profile
Re: "Not the right time to tell you," a mentor says to Harry
« Reply #4 on: July 21, 2020, 06:13:10 AM »
On the White Council side - Eb, Rashid, etc. - I think it's that the Senior Council isn't 100% sure Harry will end up on the right side. So he probably shouldn't know more than he needs to at the time, to limit the damage if he goes bad.

With the Cornerhounds Eb had to tell Harry enough to let them survive.

River Shoulders might be reluctant since the implication is likely that Harry will become Gatekeeper or possibly Blackstaff (or both?) and that's an internal Council matter.

they want Harry to be able to take full advantage of "I didn't know that wasn't possible, so I did it anyway!"  (Granted, this angle seems a bit out of character for Eb, but also, if Harry had known what Demonreach was, he might well not have punched Alfred in the nose and become the Warden.)

Quite possible. Redeeming Lash's shadow might be a similar case. And Harry was really surprised in CD when Bob told him the Ladies are Immortals, since he'd already killed one...

Offline RulesLawyer

  • Lurker
  • Posts: 5
    • View Profile
Re: "Not the right time to tell you," a mentor says to Harry
« Reply #5 on: July 21, 2020, 09:03:29 PM »
The Journal micro-fiction supports that idea.

Morgan actually states that they couldn't be sure Dresden wasn't a creature of Nemesis after Justin had him. He regretted trying to push Harry to the brink to reveal it, but the other option of doing nothing as a Destroyer was born in their midst just couldn't be sat on.

It's like the council knows that Harry could be a very good thing, or a very bad thing, but that any attempts to mess with it at this point either: 1) won't work; 2) could tip off Nemesis and make it worse; or 3) wouldn't help. 

Not much to do if that's the case. Just hang in there and watch until the plot furthers.   

 

Offline TrueMonk

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 209
    • View Profile
Re: "Not the right time to tell you," a mentor says to Harry
« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2020, 01:03:53 AM »
River Shoulder even says he was sworn to secrecy about the Starborn part, but by who then? Listens to Wind?

Offline Mira

  • Needs A Life
  • ***
  • Posts: 24358
    • View Profile
Re: "Not the right time to tell you," a mentor says to Harry
« Reply #7 on: July 23, 2020, 02:31:07 AM »


  Harry has to make his own path from experience to shape what he is to become.  If he knows too much before hand, that knowledge shapes his path.

Offline morriswalters

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2547
    • View Profile
Re: "Not the right time to tell you," a mentor says to Harry
« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2020, 03:06:19 AM »
To prevent a bootstrap paradox.