Intention vs natural operation

[Yuillegan]

Butcher slips in a hint about magic and will just as the Cornerhounds appear.

Ebeneezer says to Harry that fire is best for defeating them, but natural fire works just fine. Harry asks what difference is it where the fire comes from, and Eb says he hasn't got time to give him a lecture in intention versus the natural operation of the universe. He says that it mostly has to do with the fact that if a Wizard uses magic the Outsider can slip most of the punch. This makes sense when we consider how He Who Walks Behind was defeated, and the fact the Demonreach contains a banefire to defeat the Immortals.

My WAG is that while mortal will is strong, because you are contending against such powerful beings they often are hiding behind their avatar and therefore the attack doesn't actually attack the being itself. It may also be to do with being so alien it is hard for the human mind to comprehend and engage with them. I suspect that when natural elements are used i.e. the normal energy and matter of the created universe, you are actually utilising the power and intent of TWG. After all, if TWG is the Creator of the All then it stands to reason that everything that exists in the "natural" universe is created with it's intent. Which is obviously so much stronger than what mere mortals can do (constrained as they are).

[Mr. Death]

Really, it shouldn't be that hard a concept for Harry -- he's exploited loopholes in weaknesses like that before.

The Grendelkin, for instance, was basically immune to magic (inasmuch as it could counter any of his spells), but not immune to Harry shotgunning a heap of bones at him.

Ogres are immune to magic -- so Harry dumped gasoline on one and set it on fire.

[Yuillegan]

I think it wasn't so much in terms of Harry not knowing about the difference - as you say he has exploited it to great effect in the past.

I think he was seeking clarification from his mentor as to why. You can know that a plane can fly, but not understand how that comes to be. Many are satisfied in knowing that something merely exists, but some wish to learn the deeper reasons for how something comes to be.

I feel Butcher has been setting this up for a while, but really whacked us in the face with it in Peace Tals.

[Bad Alias]

I suspect that when natural elements are used i.e. the normal energy and matter of the created universe, you are actually utilising the power and intent of TWG. After all, if TWG is the Creator of the All then it stands to reason that everything that exists in the "natural" universe is created with it's intent. Which is obviously so much stronger than what mere mortals can do (constrained as they are).

Genesis 2:2: "He rested on the seventh day from all the work He had undertaken." I've heard that the resting on the seventh day signifies God holding the universe in existence because God doesn't need rest. What that means for the DF is that reality is a construct, like what Harry does when doing magic, constantly maintained by TWG.

Here's where my mind is heading with this, still pretty rough: It has been theorized that TWG is just a powerful Outsider fighting all the other Outsider. The Outsiders we see in reality are constructs interacting with constructs. Magic fire is a construct of a construct. So attacking an Outsider is a construct attacking a construct with a construct's construct. That makes it a step down. A stretch. Using real fire is hitting a construct with a construct. Same level.

[Yuillegan]

Yeah, pretty much on the same page with you. Could go a long way to explaining why some things work better and some don't. However, why is fire so much more effective than the other elements? That's a big mystery to me...and spirit seems to be the fifth element (although I always thought that was meant to be Love).

And then, how does Will/Intent tie into it all?

[vultur]

Here's where my mind is heading with this, still pretty rough: It has been theorized that TWG is just a powerful Outsider fighting all the other Outsider.

I've never liked this theory, though maybe it's just a matter of definitions.

Sure, if the Creator created Reality, then he must be from "Outside" in the sense of "not native to the created Reality". But the Outside/Inside distinction I think doesn't have any meaning until Reality exists. And at that point the Creator would be "on the side of Reality" (Inside) whereas Outsiders seem to be hostile-to-reality basically by definition.

But the general concept - that magic is on a lower, derivative level of real-ness than physical stuff - I think is probably correct.

[Yuillegan]

I suspect it is more than just a matter of definitions. There seems to be a distinct "dark" feel to every single Outsider and Old One encountered so far.

TWG and his servants have a distinct "light" feel. Why would this one (TWG) be so different?

So I think you're correct Vultur in the sense he isn't part of the ordered of Created things. Even in general christian teachings God doesn't create himself as he is "eternal" as in always having existed. And I agree that Inside/Outside are meaningless unless *something* exists. Uriel even hints about this when he talks about the essential distinction between good and evil.

The real question is have the other Old Ones ever made their own Creations/Multiverses? Do they still exist?

Jim's answer about Outsiders suggests that they hate any Creation...so I guess not. Which brings us back to why is TWG different to other Old Ones if he is an Outsider himself? Should be interesting to find out

The whole thing about magic being less "real" than natural forces says to me Jim might be tying into the whole "world is an illusion" idea. Mara etc.

[Bad Alias]

However, why is fire so much more effective than the other elements?

TWG is clearly based on the Christianity. The Holy Spirit is often represented by fire. That might have something to do with it. Fifth element. Love.  . The Holy Spirit and fire are both, individually, associated with love, ironically enough.

I've never liked this theory, though maybe it's just a matter of definitions.

Yeah. Me either, but it does have merit. Maybe just reframe it as the WG and Outsiders are primordial beings of the same general classification. I think it's obvious that not all creatures of outside are equal to one another based on what we've been told about Outsiders, Walkers, and Old Ones, but I generally use the term Outsiders to cover anything from Outside.

[knightedbishop]

I didn’t love this answer from Ebenezer. First off, it’s too vague to draw many conclusions from. Second, it goes against what Harry has said before: Effects created by magic behave just like the same effect created by mundane means. Fire summoned by magic is just fire once it’s there and subject to all the same laws of physics as normal fire. It constantly comes up in Skin Game when Harry talks about how good Ascher is with fire.

Fire laced with soul fire is something else. Fire worked into a summoning circle is something else. They are something else because there is still magic involved in infusing the fire or directing it. Maybe that’s what Ebenezer means. When Luccio and Ebenezer summon tight, extremely hot flames, they are continuing to use magic to confine and direct where it moves. By contrast, Harry pretty much shoots flame like a blowtorch and doesn’t seem to do a lot to shape its area of effect. He sometimes modifies the fire with soul fire or power from Winter’s well. I can agree that is different since magic is continuing to be invoked beyond the fire’s creation, but the vast majority of the fire we see Harry use seems identical to what comes out of a flame thrower.

I get it, Harry can be an unreliable narrator. But there’s an intrinsic coherency to his statement, which Ebenezer’s both lacks that coherency and sufficient explanation.

[vultur]

Hmm, actually, here's another theory. In Changes, Harry says wizard magic is forces/energies built up around a core of will, while the kind of "crushing will" tricks that Odin and the Lords of Outer Knight/Red King use are pure will.

So maybe it's that core of will that makes magic "more fragile" than mundane things. Shoot a magical blast of fire at something that can counter your will with superior power, and the fire kind of disperses. But use a mundane flamethrower, and will isn't relevant.

As Mr. Death pointed out, it's not just an Outsider thing. The Grendelkin in Heorot is described as magic-resistant because of counter-magic (I think the Genoskwa in SG is too), and the Ogre in SK (Lord Talos) was magic-resistant due to wearing enchanted faerie armor. This is magic/will vs. magic/will.

Outsiders may have a second level of immunity to physical stuff since they are not native to Reality, as Eb says Harry as Starborn could even punch an Outsider and it would hurt them... implying a normal person couldn't.

When Luccio and Ebenezer summon tight, extremely hot flames, they are continuing to use magic to confine and direct where it moves. By contrast, Harry pretty much shoots flame like a blowtorch and doesn’t seem to do a lot to shape its area of effect.

I think the difference is a matter of degree, not yes/no. Harry's Fuego spell is using *some* magic to control the fire after it is magically conjured, or it would spread more "randomly" rather than shooting toward his enemy; Luccio's narrow beam is just more narrowly controlled.

If he just conjured fire with no control afterwards, I think it would look more like an explosion / bonfire than a blowtorch/flamethrower jet of flame.

[vultur]

I suspect it is more than just a matter of definitions. There seems to be a distinct "dark" feel to every single Outsider and Old One encountered so far.

TWG and his servants have a distinct "light" feel. Why would this one (TWG) be so different?

So I think you're correct Vultur in the sense he isn't part of the ordered of Created things. Even in general christian teachings God doesn't create himself as he is "eternal" as in always having existed. And I agree that Inside/Outside are meaningless unless *something* exists. Uriel even hints about this when he talks about the essential distinction between good and evil.

Yeah that's what I was getting at.

Do we actually know that the Outsiders existed before Reality ("Inside")? If "before" even has meaning here... Time is probably a feature of "Inside" Reality.

Is there a WOJ or something that would rule out the Outsiders being a "shadow cast by Reality", coming into existence in the moment of Reality being created as a side-effect of that?

[huangjimmy108]

Butcher slips in a hint about magic and will just as the Cornerhounds appear.

Ebeneezer says to Harry that fire is best for defeating them, but natural fire works just fine. Harry asks what difference is it where the fire comes from, and Eb says he hasn't got time to give him a lecture in intention versus the natural operation of the universe. He says that it mostly has to do with the fact that if a Wizard uses magic the Outsider can slip most of the punch. This makes sense when we consider how He Who Walks Behind was defeated, and the fact the Demonreach contains a banefire to defeat the Immortals.

My WAG is that while mortal will is strong, because you are contending against such powerful beings they often are hiding behind their avatar and therefore the attack doesn't actually attack the being itself. It may also be to do with being so alien it is hard for the human mind to comprehend and engage with them. I suspect that when natural elements are used i.e. the normal energy and matter of the created universe, you are actually utilising the power and intent of TWG. After all, if TWG is the Creator of the All then it stands to reason that everything that exists in the "natural" universe is created with it's intent. Which is obviously so much stronger than what mere mortals can do (constrained as they are).

In Xianxia terms, this is the difference between using magic normally and understanding the laws. I wander if wizards could grow in skill to the point that they can utilize the laws of the universe as their weapons. Can Harry for example, concentrate natural sunlight through magic and using the high intensity and heat of the sun, thereby nullifying those creatures who are immune to magic? Or even better, can Harry simulate a mini nuclear explosion with magic? Of course Harry does knot know anything about nuclear physics, but can a wizard who understand physics do such a thing?

To a certain extent, EB himself has done this. Rather than conjuring a massive forzare spell and smash Ortega with it, EB dragged down a satelite from orbit. No anti-magic defenses could nullify that. Rather than burning the enemy with a fuego spell, better to disturb a nearby volcano and direct the wrath of nature at them.

[TheCuriousFan]

I think the difference is a matter of degree, not yes/no. Harry's Fuego spell is using *some* magic to control the fire after it is magically conjured, or it would spread more "randomly" rather than shooting toward his enemy; Luccio's narrow beam is just more narrowly controlled.

If he just conjured fire with no control afterwards, I think it would look more like an explosion / bonfire than a blowtorch/flamethrower jet of flame.

That's pretty explicit, the beam keeps shrinking as the books go on (and expanding whenever he loses his blasting rod for the nth time) and the Ghost Story flashback showed that his first fuego was just basically him hosing fire in HWWB's direction.