Author Topic: And Amoracchius goes to... [Peace Talks Spoilers, Battle Ground Speculation]  (Read 11623 times)

Offline Mr. Death

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Imagine a scene where Harry's brought Amoracchius to the battle prep and left it laying on a table, and Marcone touches the hilt absently while explaining to Harry that all he wants is to protect the people in Chicago, and a faint glow emanates from the sheeth?
I seriously, strenuously doubt that Amorrachius is going to go to someone who just barely didn't shoot Justine and an innocent child in the head only because it would mean having to fight and kill Dresden immediately instead of down the road.

Seriously, I don't know how anyone can read Even Hand and entertain the possibility that Marcone is anywhere near material for a Knight of the Cross.
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Offline Grifter

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I seriously, strenuously doubt that Amorrachius is going to go to someone who just barely didn't shoot Justine and an innocent child in the head only because it would mean having to fight and kill Dresden immediately instead of down the road.

Seriously, I don't know how anyone can read Even Hand and entertain the possibility that Marcone is anywhere near material for a Knight of the Cross.
I think you're exaggerating the circumstances in Even Hand.  He didn't just barely not kill them. He had no intention of killing the child at all. If you remember anything about him, you should remember that kids are safe. As for Justine, she was a spy that cost him valuable resources and who's actions injured his people, to use him as a cat's paw.  Is it really so outlandish for someone to consider such things against a potential enemy that abused his own sensitivities?

But despite all that, he said he debated it, and then decided against it.  There was never a rational reason for him to do it, so he wouldn't have. That's the one thing you can count on for Marcone.  He won't do something without a profit.

As for the sword, it seems highly unlikely that he'd even be worthy. But it might be interesting to see him touch it while thinking about protecting his city, which he will likely defend as passionately and he does any of his people. Which is to say not passionately, but with cold determination.

Offline Mr. Death

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I think you're exaggerating the circumstances in Even Hand.  He didn't just barely not kill them. He had no intention of killing the child at all. If you remember anything about him, you should remember that kids are safe. As for Justine, she was a spy that cost him valuable resources and who's actions injured his people, to use him as a cat's paw.  Is it really so outlandish for someone to consider such things against a potential enemy that abused his own sensitivities?
As I recall the story, in the end, after the Fomor are driven off and Justine and the kid are safe, Marcone's inner monologue very clearly and explicitly considers killing both of them, because they've seen too much of his defenses.

Marcone is a bad person, who does bad things, for selfish reasons.

He is not fit for a Sword.

Admittedly, my copy is with someone else right now so I can't check it, but I do not recall Marcone excepting the child from his consideration of murder.

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But despite all that, he said he debated it, and then decided against it.  There was never a rational reason for him to do it, so he wouldn't have. That's the one thing you can count on for Marcone.  He won't do something without a profit.
That he considered it and only decided against it for the reason of, "It means killing Harry now instead of killing Harry later," is not a good mark. He had to talk himself out of murdering a woman and an innocent child.

His idea for killing Justine and the child was made for cold, rational reasons -- that they knew of his defenses and might, some time in the future, tell Harry about them. He didn't kill them because doing so would mean fighting Harry immediately instead of later on -- i.e., he made the decision based on when would be a good time to murder someone else.

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As for the sword, it seems highly unlikely that he'd even be worthy. But it might be interesting to see him touch it while thinking about protecting his city, which he will likely defend as passionately and he does any of his people. Which is to say not passionately, but with cold determination.
Marcone doesn't want another predator taking away his prey. He doesn't have some altruistic, virtuous desire to protect the innocent. He's just defending his hunting territory.
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Offline ClintACK

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Just checked my copy -- he doesn't mention killing the child, just Justine. And his reason is that she'll tell Dresden the details of his anti-Dresden defenses. (In Peace Talks, we learn that she did exactly that.)

In fact, he explicitly warns Justine about taking the child to the White Court, and suggests Father Forthill as an alternative.

The passage in question:
Quote from: Even Hand
I debated putting a bullet in her head but decided against it.

But, yes, Marcone is not a good man. His role in the story is to show that the "rational, honorable monster" that Dresden often finds himself dealing with (like Lara and Mab) isn't an exclusively supernatural phenomenon. Marcone is fully human, fully rational, and fully a monster. And still probably better than what would replace him if he's killed -- just like Lara or Mab.

I don't think he'll be taking up a Sword, any more than Lara or Lea or Mab, without a serious redemption arc.

Offline Mira

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But, yes, Marcone is not a good man. His role in the story is to show that the "rational, honorable monster" that Dresden often finds himself dealing with (like Lara and Mab) isn't an exclusively supernatural phenomenon. Marcone is fully human, fully rational, and fully a monster. And still probably better than what would replace him if he's killed -- just like Lara or Mab.

Which is why it was weird to have him step up and take the lead to defend Chicago, even getting a bit moralistic...

As far as the Sword goes, I had thought of him as a possible candidate for one and that was confirmed that Jim even considered it at one point but went with Butters instead.  Yes, he is a monster, but Sanya back when he held a coin did things that would make him a monster as well.
So it is possible that Marcone could and can redeem himself, if he continues to lead in the fight against the Fomor and the Titian he may succeed and be worthy of a Sword, if that is his desire.

Offline Second Aristh

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Which is why it was weird to have him step up and take the lead to defend Chicago, even getting a bit moralistic...
I didn't think it was that weird for Marcone to step up like that.  He just met an immensely powerful being that wants to kill him in particular.  It's pretty rational to strong arm the Accords into getting yourself allies against Ethniu.  Just because he doesn't typically let emotions rule his judgment doesn't mean he can't use them to manipulate others.
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Offline ClintACK

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Why was that weird?

The whole point of hosting the Peace Talks was to increase his stature among the Accords signatories. He's the host, and it's his "barony" that's under attack. If he *didn't* step up to take the lead, it would be the end of the experiment of letting a mortal join the club.

Offline Mr. Death

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Right, he didn't do it because he was an upstanding citizen who really cares dearly for the common man of the city.

He did it because he's in a room full of predators who just got told that the only thing stopping them from eating him outright for his insolence -- the Accords -- no longer matter. He has to take charge or else he's dead.
Compels solve everything!

http://blur.by/1KgqJg6 My first book: "Brothers of the Curled Isles"

Quote from: Cozarkian
Not every word JB rights is a conspiracy. Sometimes, he's just telling a story.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_T_mld7Acnm-0FVUiaKDPA The C-Team Podcast

Offline Grifter

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But he has a code.  He doesn't let anyone kill kids, or sell them drugs, or abuse them.  The first section of the short story was all about him killing people that had been giving kids drugs and then prostituting them. 

It's like the bad guys in Die Hard With A Vengeance.  Their entire threat revolves around putting a massive explosive in a city school. But when one of the henchmen tries to leave a smaller explosive on the street, another says he can't leave it, because what if a kid finds it. It clues the viewer into the fact that the school threat is a ruse long before the reveal.

Marcone wouldn't have hurt the child. And he likely wouldn't have killed Justine either. But he considered it, and rightly so. Gender and beauty aside, someone had just used and manipulated him, resulting in his own arm being broken, his people being injured, his resources being spent, and his defenses being revealed. If Justine had been some guy, we wouldn't think twice about Marcone making them pay for what they did.

If anything, Marcone comes across as cold but fair, and Justine comes across as a cold manipulative liar. 

Offline Mira

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Right, he didn't do it because he was an upstanding citizen who really cares dearly for the common man of the city.

He did it because he's in a room full of predators who just got told that the only thing stopping them from eating him outright for his insolence -- the Accords -- no longer matter. He has to take charge or else he's dead.

Yes, I didn't make myself clear, it was weird because he came off as an moral upstanding citizen caring about the city when all he really cares about is his own survival.

Offline Second Aristh

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Yes, I didn't make myself clear, it was weird because he came off as an moral upstanding citizen caring about the city when all he really cares about is his own survival.
I think "all he really cares about" is a bit too strong, but yeah, it's likely higher on his priority list than Chicago as a whole.
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Offline Bad Alias

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Marcone is a bad person, who does bad things, for selfish reasons.
I'm not so sure it's for selfish reasons.

Offline Mr. Death

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Marcone wouldn't have hurt the child. And he likely wouldn't have killed Justine either. But he considered it, and rightly so. Gender and beauty aside, someone had just used and manipulated him, resulting in his own arm being broken, his people being injured, his resources being spent, and his defenses being revealed. If Justine had been some guy, we wouldn't think twice about Marcone making them pay for what they did.
The confrontation starts with Marcone having to be talked into saving the kid, because by rights the kid belongs to the Fomor. He didn't seem too broken up about the prospect of giving Justine and the child back to the Fomor until Justine pours on the extra guilt.

And you're missing the point -- he didn't consider killing Justine as retaliation for her manipulation.

He considered killing Justine because she knew too much; not because she wronged him, but because murdering her might make murdering someone else easier.
Compels solve everything!

http://blur.by/1KgqJg6 My first book: "Brothers of the Curled Isles"

Quote from: Cozarkian
Not every word JB rights is a conspiracy. Sometimes, he's just telling a story.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_T_mld7Acnm-0FVUiaKDPA The C-Team Podcast

Offline Linnemir

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My guess is purely from left field and as unexpected as choosing Susan was in Changes.

What about Justine?
A mind is a terrible thing to lose ... now, where the heck did I leave mine?

Offline Grifter

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The confrontation starts with Marcone having to be talked into saving the kid, because by rights the kid belongs to the Fomor. He didn't seem too broken up about the prospect of giving Justine and the child back to the Fomor until Justine pours on the extra guilt.

And you're missing the point -- he didn't consider killing Justine as retaliation for her manipulation.

He considered killing Justine because she knew too much; not because she wronged him, but because murdering her might make murdering someone else easier.
I think you're overestimating the line that he "debated" it.  He was never really going to do it due to the circumstances of the situation, specifically due to the fact that she was there under the Accords.  He had every reason to believe, by the end of their conversation, that Justine (and Lara) went to him intentionally.  There was every reason to believe that Justine was setting him up and using him as a cat's paw for the Wamp mission. So he couldn't just kill her after claiming Accords protection if there was even a chance Lara knew she was going there.

Now, if this is all to argue the point that someone who is capable of weighing the pros and cons of murdering someone in cold blood isn't compatible with using a Sword of the Cross, then sure.  We're both in agreement.  But I think the Sword is capable of picking up on intentions in the moment, and the person's worthiness in the moment, and allowing them to wield it in the moment.  I don't think Susan managed to work against the Ramps and their loyal followers without killing some humans via conventional means.  I don't think she'd pass the litmus test of Worthy of the Sword on a regular day.  But on one day she did, because of her goals and intentions.  I think the same could possibly be true for Marcone.