!!!SPOILERS!!! PEACE TALKS !!!SPOILERS!!!

[huangjimmy108]

I have read it now, and by the time you have all finished it I imagine I will be asleep.

Spoilers below read at your own peril!!!

First things first. Oh. My. God.

Secondly, what was your favorite part? What did you like and dislike?

I really enjoyed some call backs to Harry's former cases. Things like old potions being used again was lovely. Also lots of great one liners.

Some truly incredible reveals as well.

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1. Outsiders. We now know why they might work together. Because many of them are not actually separate wills but the same being/will in multiple constructs. This was a theory I had way back, as I am sure others might have. But it's nice to have confirmed. This links to another major theory for another post.
2. We also now know why magic has such a hard time against Outsiders, which links to...
3. We now know part of what a Starborn is. We conveniently don't know what a Destroyer is or if it is related. We know what power Harry has against Outsiders...although it isn't clear that he knows how to use it.
4. The Cycle. 666. If the massive clue bat with the Knights of the Cross showing up didn't give it away - there is a Hell-related link.
5. We also now "know" part of what makes the Nails of the Cross so powerful in part (there is an Angel inside).
6. We are closer than ever to knowing who Mab is. We know she is rode with William the Conqueror when she was a teenager/young adult. We know she was a personal friend (possibly lover) of the original Merlin. My guess is that she is Morganna le Fey.
7. Mab got her ass handed to her. She was so hopelessly outclassed we now know that we haven't really seen the big players (except in small doses and hints).
8. Ferrovax and Vadderung didn't exactly seem to be allies, but not totally enemies either. Both of them were highly concerned by Ethniu.
9. Somehow Ethniu has kept most of her strength, and inherited her father's eye. How is this possible?
10. Why is she "The Last Titan" are all the protogods actually gone? If so, what happened?
11. Is she Nemesis-infected? Probably
12. Spear of Longinus called an Athame. Interesting foreshadowing. What is the long-term dilemma Harry mentions?
13. Harry also wanted the plaque. Apart from a battery, what other use has it?
14. King Corb seemed very similar to the Red King in his slightly mad temperament. Similar power level too I suspect.
15. We still haven't seen the sucker punch Eb mentioned.
16. Cristos seems more like a puppet and less like straight up bad guy. It could be an act...but still.
17. Ebenezer is a loose cannon. Makes Harry look positively restrained.
18. Lea is probably Birog. Based on the arrival of Ethniu. Was also commanding the defences of the Outer Gates. Intense assault - perhaps the Gatekeeper also wasn't there. He would have been in Edinburgh for the vote.
19. Curiously Vadderung and Ferrovax don't want a head on fight with Ethniu. Perhaps they could fight her...but Ferro seemed worried about collateral damage. Made me think his powers are just as destructive as helpful. Interestingly, Harry seems to imply that regular old Angels would be a match for Ethniu as he isn't worried about her storming the Carpenters.
20. In a previous book Ebeneezer claimed responsibility for the Tunguska event (as Blackstaff). In this book Harry forgets Eb told him that and says it was the last time a Dragon was killed (which we all thought was when Michael killed Siriothrax).

Anyway, thoughts? Feelings? Emotions?

Okay...
Is Harry = Naruto now? Harry might as well learn the equivalent of sealing jutsu here. The similarities might be just a coincidence but it struck me just the same. With the mantle = to kyuubi, we just need sage mode to perfect the image.

Don't take the Tunguska thing seriously, the old Harry in book 6 and the current Harry is not the same person at all, and the information he can access is not even at the same level. Harry might just learn something new off screen. If Harry wanted to, he could review the inmates of demonreach and know all their secrets. That is knowledge and power at his fingertips. The price is heavy though, but Harry do have access to it. Just to show that what Harry know and mention in the last books as facts may not be correct.

Harry may not count his visit to the BFS building at the end of skin game as a real visit. If I remember correctly he enter that building, go straight to Marcone and Mab, do his business and get out. That visit is too short and abrupt so Harry might have discounted it in his mind.

EB is a bit out of control, but I suppose the pressure has gotten into him. Of course other abnormal causes may be at play, but the man has been holding the blackstaff for some years now, breaking the 7 laws of magic who knows how many times against his own morality and conscience. Even if the blackstaff can neutralize the taint, the ppsycological damage must be huge. So it does not surprise me if EB could be broken under the right circumstances.

I hope Murphy does not die, simply because we are nearing the end. The idea of torturing Harry should be lef behind. I want a happy ending for my favorite series. Thank you very much.

As for Thomas and some other mysteries, let's just wait for battleground. Like it or not Peace talks is just half of a book. The answer should appear in time.

[Yuillegan]

Up until recently, Bad Alias, Harry was always the tall skinny guy. He only really put on the mass when he got the mantle I think, and even so still seems to not be as big as someone who can lift what he can.
Totally agree about the Sinister Six thing.

Interesting ideas about the possible identity of Titania.

Dresden11 - Just because you dislike the portrayal of what happened to Mab doesn't mean it didn't happen. Mab got her ass kicked. Ethniu wasn't even trying to kill Mab because she didn't even consider her a threat. She was making a point. Mab isn't Winter, Mother Winter is Winter. Mab is out of her weight class with something like Ethniu. And I saw no evidence in the book that the comments that Corb made robbed her of her mantle's protection. Corb's comments were purely psychological tactics to try and rile her up and not see the sucker punch. Perhaps you missed the general message Mab has to all her creatures: if you get beaten it's your own fault. She wasn't prepared enough. Mab is certainly strong in magical raw power, but she is no Goddess. Often described as a demigod, she is several levels below something like Ethniu. Consider this - Ethniu masked her presence so that all those divine beings didn't even sense her. Molly could sense Vadderung just because he was in a bar near her (in Ghost Story) yet none of them sensed the massively powerful being that was about to walk through the door.

Jim has said Mab would be loathe to take Ferrovax head on (due to his sheer raw power). And Ferrovax was freaking terrified of Ethniu. Hell, he wasn't even prepared to throw down with Vadderung (who is quite possibly not even as strong as Mab in Vadderung guise - although I suspect he fights dirty, like Dresden). As Morris said, Mab's real power is her armies and connections. Her Queendom.  Mab's strong, but she's a long way from being the biggest bully on the playground.

Morris, great point. I completely agree that is the pertinent question. I would say Rashid falls into that category. There's a WOJ that Angels cannot be infected by Nemesis. But as for any other supernatural being - I think all bets are off. I think even the Mother's seemed wary. And I suspect Ethniu is nemfected. But perhaps apart from Angels, mortals have the best chance of resisting, provided they have the right protection. I suspect the Original Merlin (who Corb seems to have confirmed to be dead). Possibly Mai (I think she technically could have been born in the previous cycle). Not many others though...if any. Real question is how long Nemesis has been involved? It seems to be a relatively recent phenomenon.

[Firestarter]

I am severly dissapointed by this book. It seems so... unfinished. Actually, no, let me rephrase that:It seems to have been reworked so many times and not finished.

Some of the characters all of a sudden don't act like themselves. Thomas? Fine, we'll have to wait for the conclusion of that one.

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Ebenezer? Unable to keep his temper after a few centuries? That's not how it works. He'd have killed Dresden during his apprenticeship. He does fine while dealing under the influence of mental whammy ink, but NOW he flips out. Necessary hamfisted plot-device for a heart-to-heart much?

Dresden: What should I say? A guy who goes through stuff like Dresden has will bear the scars for a long time. Decades in my experience. But people like that learn from their mistakes. And they never flip parts of their character. For people who go through enough the face, the persona you see is just a mask they are wearing among other humans. It's not actually their character you get to see. Again, I speak from real life experience.

The Fiddler at the party: "They are called Unseelie Accords..." I won't even bother going to further elaborate.

And finally... Morgana la Fey...? Seriously? Mab is Morgana la Fey? Who was madly in Love with Merlin... kinda like Molly is in love with Dresden? Seriously?

And frankly, the preachy tone in some parts of the book feels... weird. There are ways how to work certain messaged into the dialogue without making them poke out an eye. It's why people in real life rarely get to make cool sentences that carry a deep message. Most people simply don't realize when to shut up and keep adding. That's precisely how the "important messages" in this book feel. And THIS is the part of reality Jim decided to incorporate into the story?

Seriously, I have no idea who's responsible for these changes having happened, but I hope the person will take a long vacation. A decade or two sound good.

[morriswalters]

Well I'm in my second reading via audio book. I'm beginning to get the idea that Eb was betrayed by a lover or someone close, maybe Lara or one of her sisters. Some vampire got in close, within knife fighting range, and hurt Eb.  It may not have been intentional.  Lara drops some hints on how it could happened.  A vamp, maybe hurt, and acting on instinct. In any case maybe it will get clearer.

Also Jim seems to be telegraphing that River Shoulders could be the one that helps Harry to control the Winter Mantle.  Harry appears to have quite a bit of repressed rage not to mention some serious grand daddy issues. Anyway, ever onward.

[Gigglestomp]

I think it more likely Ebeneezer hates all vampires with special levels of dislike for the black and white courts.

We know he has past dealings with Mavra, and a way to track her / target her that he did not elaborate on during the raid on her scourge. For all we know Mavra is family. She could be his mother, or grandmother. She could even be an elder daughter of his. Ebeneezer is over 300 years old and Stoker's book was published 123 years ago in 1897. A wizard turned to the black court would have power with a capital P. I don't know if we can guess at her age, but we know she is more powerful  than the average black court vampire, shes a full wizard because of her ability to veil AND blow things up. The power could have helped her survive even if older members of the court were killed after the book. Maybe his mistakes with Mavra caused him to over-compensate with Maggie?

We know he has past dealings with the white court. Most of his hate for them seems to stem from Raith killing his daughter, which is understandable.

[Bad Alias]

Dresden11 - Just because you dislike the portrayal of what happened to Mab doesn't mean it didn't happen. Mab got her ass kicked. Ethniu wasn't even trying to kill Mab because she didn't even consider her a threat. She was making a point.

I'm not so sure the theory that Mab being emotional didn't suppress her mantle the way Harry being rational suppresses his is wrong. Ethniu was making a point. A point killing Mab would have put a fine point on. Why have Corb speak at all? It seemed that most of the members weren't paying any attention to her at first.

I suspect the Original Merlin (who Corb seems to have confirmed to be dead).

Jim confirmed he's dead. I'm not so sure that any particular person in the DF knows how he died or even that he did in fact die. Ebeneezer, who has Merlin's and his apprentice's journals doesn't know.

[Grifter]

Dresden11 - Just because you dislike the portrayal of what happened to Mab doesn't mean it didn't happen. Mab got her ass kicked. Ethniu wasn't even trying to kill Mab because she didn't even consider her a threat. She was making a point. Mab isn't Winter, Mother Winter is Winter. Mab is out of her weight class with something like Ethniu. And I saw no evidence in the book that the comments that Corb made robbed her of her mantle's protection. Corb's comments were purely psychological tactics to try and rile her up and not see the sucker punch. Perhaps you missed the general message Mab has to all her creatures: if you get beaten it's your own fault. She wasn't prepared enough. Mab is certainly strong in magical raw power, but she is no Goddess. Often described as a demigod, she is several levels below something like Ethniu. Consider this - Ethniu masked her presence so that all those divine beings didn't even sense her. Molly could sense Vadderung just because he was in a bar near her (in Ghost Story) yet none of them sensed the massively powerful being that was about to walk through the door.

Jim has said Mab would be loathe to take Ferrovax head on (due to his sheer raw power). And Ferrovax was freaking terrified of Ethniu. Hell, he wasn't even prepared to throw down with Vadderung (who is quite possibly not even as strong as Mab in Vadderung guise - although I suspect he fights dirty, like Dresden). As Morris said, Mab's real power is her armies and connections. Her Queendom.  Mab's strong, but she's a long way from being the biggest bully on the playground.

I'm not so sure the theory that Mab being emotional didn't suppress her mantle the way Harry being rational suppresses his is wrong. Ethniu was making a point. A point killing Mab would have put a fine point on. Why have Corb speak at all? It seemed that most of the members weren't paying any attention to her at first.

I think there can still be a middle ground here, where we can acknowledge that Ethniu's power and skillset exceeds Mab's in certain ways, but it doesn't mean they're in different classes.

Mab is weakest in mid-summer, and this occurred in July.  Mab is limited on Earth, because her power unrestrained warps reality.  Mab was passionate, which is the opposite of her way, per Titania in Cold Days. Mab can't act directly on Earth without inviting an equal reaction from Titania. Mab's power is elemental and not brute physical.

Ethniu being a tank that is powered up with a bonus power armor and eye with no known limitations on her use of power in reality... If she didn't mop the floor with Mab, she would have been laughed out of the room.

I think saying Ethniu is out of Mab's league because she laid her out with a single hit is like saying the Genowska is out of Harry's league because he laid him out with a single hit. Harry bounced up quicker than Mab, but I think the circumstances were very similar.  Mab likely would have bounced back quicker if it'd mattered, or if it were earlier in the year, or she weren't acting so humanly passionate.

It was a sucker punch. And we have every reason to believe that one could beat the other in certain circumstances.  Ethniu could likely burn Mab right out of her host with that eye of hers, and Mab could likely freeze Ethniu's blood in mid-Winter in the Never-never.

[vultur]

Also, I'm not sure Ethniu not trying to kill Mab was because Mab was no threat... it might just as well be because she couldn't. Even if Ethniu is vastly more powerful, that doesn't mean she could kill Mab. Mab is an Immortal, and it's not Halloween, and the Stone Table wasn't involved.

And even if she could... the goal was to demonstrate Mab's inability to hold her Accords together. Killing her might actually be counterproductive to the political goal, because then you get a new Winter Queen who is less of a known quantity/less predictable (even if somewhat less effective at the beginning).

And yeah, Mab on Earth in summer is not going to be at her best. Still horrifically powerful by mortal standards, but not the strongest being in that room even before Ethniu walked in (Jim said years ago that Ferrovax could defeat Mab outside of Faerie).

[Gnomoleon]

Ok .... What happened to Mister? Did I miss something?

[Grifter]

Ok .... What happened to Mister? Did I miss something?

What do you mean?  Mister was living with Harry and Maggie, and they took him to the Carpenters' house.

[pcpoet]

mister was living at murphy's house3 last I heard,

[Grifter]

mister was living at murphy's house3 last I heard,

Until Peace Talks.  Assuming everyone here has read it...

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Anyway, when we finally came all the way into the living room, Mister, my big grey tomcat, appeared as he always did and flung himself at my shins in a welcome-home shoulder block. I leaned down to rub the base of his ears the way he liked, which he received with great magnanimity, before dismissing me to continue my day. He walked by Thomas, rubbing his cheek against my brother’s leg once and once only to mark him as Mister’s property; then he walked off in regal disinterest. Mister wasn’t as young as he used to be, but he still knew who ruled the apartment.

[ClintACK]

Re: Mister...

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When they're packing up to leave the Svartalf embassy, Harry specifically tells Hope Carpenter how to bait the cat carrier so Mister will get in it, and then Hope tells him that Mister's in the carrier.

They didn't forget him. And he's currently safe as houses at the Carpenter residence with a choir of angels and a giant foo dog backing up his natural feline immortality.

[Bad Alias]

I think there can still be a middle ground here, where we can acknowledge that Ethniu's power and skillset exceeds Mab's in certain ways, but it doesn't mean they're in different classes...

It was a sucker punch.

I agree with all of this. Even the part I ellipsied over. I don't think Ethniu has Mab as outclassed as we (and the Accorded members present) are meant to think. I think that was the point of everything we saw. That could be the reason the talks were called for when the were. If Ethniu really did have such power, why not just kill Mab in front of everyone?

I want to be clear that I'm not saying Ethniu is a weakling that no one needs to worry about, but if she were all powerful, why has she been hiding in the ocean for 1,000 years or however long?

[Grifter]

I want to be clear that I'm not saying Ethniu is a weakling that no one needs to worry about, but if she were all powerful, why has she been hiding in the ocean for 1,000 years or however long?

Side quests? 

But seriously, she might have had to work to get her dad's eye and that armor.  And since we know at least some power comes from worship, she might have had to wait for her dad to be used in video games, or for Cyclops to become a more popular X-Men character.