Battle Ground !!!SPOILERS!!!

[Conspiracy Theorist]

I am pretty sure proponents of the death penalty will change their mind when the concept of the death curse is explained to them, and that it could be aimed at them unless other practitioners are involved in the process. Having all the guards in a prison drop dead because an improperly handled Warlock would do that.

Wizards are going to have to obey mortal laws, so no more fairy gold, but to be fair I would love to see a mortal try to pay a wizard for services rendered in bitcoin. An exchange rate between Fairy Gold and Bitcoin may be difficult to arrange. I think the dollar would prevail over both.

[Mira]

I am pretty sure proponents of the death penalty will change their mind when the concept of the death curse is explained to them, and that it could be aimed at them unless other practitioners are involved in the process. Having all the guards in a prison drop dead because an improperly handled Warlock would do that.

There must be a way around that when it comes to execution, otherwise warlocks wouldn't get the chop.

[morriswalters]

The White Council might become something similar to the Papacy, whose enforcement arm might just be hired out as needed. Think the Swiss Guards without the Swiss.

[BrainFireBob]

There must be a way around that when it comes to execution, otherwise warlocks wouldn't get the chop.

Takes vision. Hence the bagging 9f the head.

[vultur]

I am pretty sure proponents of the death penalty will change their mind when the concept of the death curse is explained to them, and that it could be aimed at them unless other practitioners are involved in the process. Having all the guards in a prison drop dead because an improperly handled Warlock would do that.

It's not even really about the death penalty vs imprisonment. It's about arresting and going through the legal process, vs. shooting from surprise Kincaid-style. Without magical help, I think the latter is the only safe way for mortals to deal with strong (sorcerer- or wizard-level) warlocks.

(Even Kravos, who was neither very strong nor very skilled, managed to create the Nightmare in prison.)

But that's not going to be acceptable (for very good reasons!) to most nations.

IE some level of help from magical types will probably be necessary.

There must be a way around that when it comes to execution, otherwise warlocks wouldn't get the chop.

I don't think that there's anything 100%, but I also think it's not often a problem.

Death curses seem to require Council-level power or close to it, and Council-level talents are super-rare (one in a million). Your typical Sells or Kravos or Aristedes type warlock isn't going to be capable of one.

And the strong warlocks may be too crazy to try (e.g. Grevane). It seems to require knowing & accepting that one is going to die.

Someone like Morgan (who usually did executions) might be strong enough to shield against a death curse from a relatively weak wizard, and/or possibly the spell-breaking property of Warden swords can work against them.

Takes vision. Hence the bagging 9f the head.

No... Maggie Sr aimed her death curse at Lord Raith who was definitely not present. (And Harry's description of preparing to use his against Grevane when he thought Morgan was going to kill him in DB also sounds like you can just aim it mentally.)

Vision might matter for less capable spellcasters, but it's by no means absolutely necessary.

[vultur]

Given the existence of a perfect magical prison, I'd imagine that arguments against the death penalty would be on stronger ground.

Demonreach isn't really for mortals, Harry was desperate in PT.

And I don't think mortal governments would be OK with using Demonreach, given how absolute the Warden's power is there.

(Plus, anyone who isn't the Warden gets affected by the inherent awful/creepy aura of Demonreach, so anyone who reported to a mortal government on that option would probably be like "no freaking way we will not have anything to do with this place ever".)

But even for non-capital offenses, it's hard to imagine mortal governments just handing over magical criminals for trial and punishment in an entirely independent system of government. That works fine right now, when those magical criminals and independent courts officially don't exist, but after?

And the merging of magical justice into mortal justice comes with all kinds of pitfalls.

Yeah, exactly, that was more the sort of thing I was talking about re: being a bad fit for the modern model of nations where jurisdiction, citizenship, and territory are so closely linked.

It would work a lot better in a medieval-style system, eg, how there were Church courts and often the secular courts didn't have jurisdiction over Church officials.

In such a system, it would make perfect sense that magical practitioners, wherever they live, are under the jurisdiction of the White Council and not that of the mundane justice system (at least for magic-related crimes).

But not in the modern post-17th-century model of nations.

[Mira]

Demonreach isn't really for mortals, Harry was desperate in PT.

But is Thomas really considered a mortal?  Do we know of any Vamps that died of old age?  They can be killed, but so can some immortals under the right circumstance. 

[knnn]

Thorn manacles?

[morriswalters]

No... Maggie Sr aimed her death curse at Lord Raith who was definitely not present. (And Harry's description of preparing to use his against Grevane when he thought Morgan was going to kill him in DB also sounds like you can just aim it mentally.)

Vision might matter for less capable spellcasters, but it's by no means absolutely necessary.

Point of order, Maggie set her death curse up in advance. And it would have bounced off Raith if Jim is to be believed.  My current WAG is that she attacked the Raith's demon through Thomas's demon. And for all we know she did it on her way out the door.

[vultur]

But is Thomas really considered a mortal?  Do we know of any Vamps that died of old age?  They can be killed, but so can some immortals under the right circumstance.

Point of order, Maggie set her death curse up in advance. And it would have bounced off Raith if Jim is to be believed.

If she had aimed it at him directly, yeah. But IIRC the curse is like a "shield" around Lord Raith, ie it doesn't actually affecthim just keeps energy from getting to him. He can still use his Hunger to influence the minds of others, he just can't get new energy from feeding.

My current WAG is that she attacked the Raith's demon through Thomas's demon. And for all we know she did it on her way out the door.

She couldn't have, because if she'd cast it then she would have died (and never had met Malcolm and Harry would never have been born).

And so Thomas wasn't available (he was still with the Raiths) so that wouldn't avoid the need for it to be non-line-of-sight.

I also just don't think there's any evidence for death curses being based on line-of-sight; Harry doesn't seem to think so when he's preparing for one in DB (when Morgan's about to kill him and he thinks about aiming it at Grevane).

[ClintACK]

I *think* the point of the hood on the warlocks pre-beheading isn't so they can't see to aim a deathcurse -- it's so they don't know they're about to die, so don't throw a deathcurse at all.

From the start of Proven Guilty: "He never knew it when the blade came down."

[Yuillegan]

You all forget, the warlock executed in PG was contained within a circle. Not to mention, any Wizard strong enough (let alone several working together) could place another practitioner under a magical lock. Hence the Council doesn't worry about Death Curses after trials, or magic escape attempts during (by and large). I suppose they could use the Thorn Manacles but I think they are rather rare and probably they don't encourage their creation.

The hood serves the same purpose as it does for mortals i.e. so that the executed person seems less than human. Makes the whole thing easier. There has been significant research into this.

I think mortal governments would nuke demonreach if they knew the danger of it. Not just because of the demons and monsters and dark gods within, but also because the fail safe would wipe out most of North America. And so end up likely creating the problem they wish to avoid. Probably a large part of why the island is shrouded and kept secret.

The White Council might become something similar to the Papacy, whose enforcement arm might just be hired out as needed. Think the Swiss Guards without the Swiss.

That I can see. However I suspect it's just as likely the Council would collapse and individual Wizards would go back and support their homelands. I suspect relatively few would attempt to hold the Council together if things got really bad.

Wizards are going to have to obey mortal laws, so no more fairy gold, but to be fair I would love to see a mortal try to pay a wizard for services rendered in bitcoin. An exchange rate between Fairy Gold and Bitcoin may be difficult to arrange. I think the dollar would prevail over both.

The White Council (and many wizards within and without) have mortal money. The White Council as an organisation has enormous financial holdings. They hardly need fairy gold, nor do they seem to use it for mortal transactions. Not to mention, they also are already subject to mortal laws. Openly, they obey them like everyone else. And like everyone else, some choose not to when they think they won't be caught. Only a few openly flout the law. It often doesn't work out.


Something to also consider is the fact that only a relatively short time ago the magical community was out in the open. Some even remember it. So they know what to do if they are rediscovered. The real question is what happens if things go sideways and it's dark times all round.

[vultur]

You all forget, the warlock executed in PG was contained within a circle.

Yeah, although I do wonder... wouldn't Morgan's sword (swung by a mortal having free will) break the Circle?

But yeah, I think it's very rarely an issue, due to a combination of the precautions they take + most warlocks aren't actually strong enough to do a death curse + many of the ones capable of it don't.

It seems to require accepting that you're going to die; Grevane didn't. Someone not Council-trained might not know it's a possibility, even if they were strong enough. (Cassius did, but he was ancient; even though he's called a "sorcerer" he probably knew more about magic than many wizards.)

I think mortal governments would nuke demonreach if they knew the danger of it. Not just because of the demons and monsters and dark gods within, but also because the fail safe would wipe out most of North America. And so end up likely creating the problem they wish to avoid

I don't think a nuke would hurt Demonreach, but maybe if it was enough to change the shape of the island... I doubt they'd use multiple H-bombs relatively close to a large city, though, especially since Demonreach has been there for ages and remained stable.

If they did damage it, that would be incredibly bad.

I doubt that part will go public, though. Harry binding the Titan might, but not the details of how.

[Regenbogen]

I can see a whole new market evolving for magic suppressing items. The fae trading with humans. Their iron free safety for iron free thorn manacles.
The svartalves constructing magic suppressing prison cells or other magic suppressing manacles.

But I do think there will be harsh times for human magic users. At first there will be cheers. The wizards helped safe us from the big bad fomor. After the first euphoria has calmed down, the voices of doubt will become stronger. Hey, those wizards are really powerful and a threat, how do we know which ones are evil? They will kill us all or enslave us. And how do we know, who is a wizard. They look just like us. They are everywhere in our middle. Yes, they saved us, but sure they have their own agenda.
And so on. This will lead to prosecution of magic users. Exactly what the wizards fear, and why they kept their existence a secret.