Battle Ground !!!SPOILERS!!!

[vultur]

First drop is 2 chapters!

[Yuillegan]

Mab wouldn't have any reason to command him not to defend his home if the Fomor attacked Marcone's territory, though. She wants them to fall, but so long as she doesn't order his action, she has a solid argument that her Knight doesn't have an Accorded obligation to let his home get trashed by a dispute between two other powers to preserve Winter's neutrality.

The Council don't have to be as strictly legalistic, granted. They'd be pissed if he intervened and dragged them into another open war while failing to kill the Empress ... but the Council are pretty remote, and if he fails in this, he'll be dead before he has to worry about their disapproval. On the other hand, if his worst weekend of the year ends up with a dead Titan that he reports to them as a fait accompli, what are they going to do about it? The Wardens have been in hard fighting against the Fomor for some years right now without a declaration of formal war ... bringing in the enemy leader's head would mend a lot of fences with pro-Harry young Wardens wavering over him joining Winter and being MIA for the Fomor fighting.

Besides, there's another out by which he can take Marcone's side, if that is the scenario. He still owes Vadderung a favour. If he trades that to Marcone to use on aiding the defense of Chicago, Harry isn't representing either Winter or the Council. He's paying off a debt as he's obligated to do.

As we can see, you are of course correct. Because Ethniu has flipped the bird at the Accords and Mab. And because Mab is attacked, all Accorded Nations are honor-bound to defend her. So it seems the White Council, or at least enough of the Senior Council, has made a decision to defend Mab. I wonder if the Merlin knows. Clearly he doesn't need to pay Vadderung or take Marcone's side either as they are all on the same side.

The real question is, knowing Harry's luck, will they still attempt to strip him of his status? I suspect it all depends on how badly this fight goes. The last chapter of Peace Talks hints that this is still something Harry should be worried about. It really all depends on who is running the White Council...the Merlin or the Black Council.

[Mira]

The real question is, knowing Harry's luck, will they still attempt to strip him of his status? I suspect it all depends on how badly this fight goes. The last chapter of Peace Talks hints that this is still something Harry should be worried about. It really all depends on who is running the White Council...the Merlin or the Black Council.

At the moment? No, there is the little matter of the Fomor and a Titian with a bad ass weapon attacking and threatening to take over the world.  After, if there is an after, I think a lot will depend on who on the Senior Council survives, who dies, and who, if there is anyone left, to replace them.
In the end it might not matter one way or the other because the Senior Council may prove with this latest fiasco that they have outlived their usefulness and something else, not the Black Council may rise to replace them.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

I suspect we will see major changes in the White Council, they won’t continue as they were previously. Harry has very little time for them as currently constituted, he really wasn’t too bothered even before the Titan.

[vultur]

Yeah, I expect significant changes resulting from losing key senior people in the battle against Ethniu and, longer-term, having to interact with mortal authorities.

But some version of the White Council has to survive IMO because the Gatekeeper implied Harry would confront them someday in TC... Maybe a lot of the Senior Council will die and Cristos will take over?

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Perhaps this is where and when it happens, I can see the break coming over the Senior Council trying to maintain the masquerade because this is what they know, and Harry knowing that they have to come out front, as the mortal worlds defenders against evil supernatural forces.

Let’s just hope that the White Council are not one of those evil supernatural forces that has to be defended against. Harry living openly as a Wizard makes him the ideal spokeswizard to the Mortal world.

Oh how he is going to hate that.

But it will force reform, mortal authorities are going to require respect for their laws, and that is perhaps where Murphy comes in (if she survives)

[vultur]

Perhaps this is where and when it happens,

Possible.

But it will force reform, mortal authorities are going to require respect for their laws

Yeah, that would be... interesting and scary. Clearly they're not going to be OK with the Council just executing warlocks, but it could be a pretty tense situation, especially if they don't have a good picture of the Council's actual limitations.

And mortal police really aren't in a position to deal with warlocks, other than the weaker and most overt ones, without supernatural help (like Harry helping out SI against Kravos); especially as the best bet for mortals against warlocks is to kill from a distance and by surprise, not try to arrest them.

And the WC's setup is not a good fit for the modern political system where nations are all essentially territory-based, the White Council has no territory of its own really.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Whereas the other supernatural nations have territory in the NeverNever, which puts the White Council in a difficult position. It doesn’t have anywhere to call it’s own.

Even the Knight can claim the Vatican and Marcone his substantial land holdings.

According to WOJ agent Barry Tilly is supposed to represent the US Government in PT, this is obviously pre-split, I suspect we will see him fleetingly with the CPD during the battle itself, and that he will have a prominent role in the aftermath that Harry is so worried about.

[vultur]

Whereas the other supernatural nations have territory in the NeverNever, which puts the White Council in a difficult position. It doesn’t have anywhere to call it’s own.

Not all of them, I don't think the White Court does either, or the LaChaise ghoul clan, etc. But yeah, those that do are in a far better position. Summer and Winter and the Erlking aren't at risk of mortal attacks against their home territory.

The big problem for the White Council is also that the Laws drastically limit what they can do vs mortals. The White Court could take over a nation pretty easily; dictatorships and others with very concentrated power structures would be very vulnerable to mind-controlling the person at the top.

[Yuillegan]

Actually, the White Council has significant physical assets. Jim has spoken several times about the various locations owned by the White Council apart from the castle under Edinburgh, not to mention their enormous financial holdings (likely several hedge funds or similar). Even if the US got upset, the White Council would probably return to Europe where their influence is strongest. I doubt they would be overly upset if the US kicked them out.

What I think will be interesting is seeing how the other nations react. Not to mention, the USA has enough enemies circling it. An enormous, terrifying internal threat might be more than it can handle. Don't think for a second that the enemies of the US wouldn't take advantage of such a situation. More on this in another thread.

As for the Warlock execution thing...I don't think they would mind. I think they would prefer if their own authorities did it, and I suspect the White Council wouldn't object. Ideally they would work together. It would be trickier in states that don't have the death penalty. Often when countries invade other countries some locals side with the invaders. Sometimes for a chance at a better life, or because they feel oppressed by their own government, sometimes they are forced into it. It's an ugly world sometimes too. But I suspect that the US would probably (at least initially) want those with the know-how to help them catch and probably kill other supernaturals. Of course, what happens when it's only the "good" wizards left? Us mortals tend to fear what we don't understand and cannot control, and hate what we fear. So likely, they end up killing them too. Assuming they win the war against the bad guys.

[vultur]

Actually, the White Council has significant physical assets.

Sure, but they all are within some nation or other. The White Council wouldn't have a voice in the UN, and by international law they'd ultimately be subject to regular nations. They don't have an NN territory inaccessible to vanilla mortals like the various Fae nations, and the Laws prevent them from just taking over some nation as a "safe zone" by mind-controlling its leadership as the White Court could do.

As for the Warlock execution thing...I don't think they would mind. I think they would prefer if their own authorities did it, and I suspect the White Council wouldn't object.

Yeah, I didn't really mean so much opposition to executing warlocks in principle (even nations and US states that don't have the death penalty might change the law if they found out about e.g. what Kemmler did).

More that nations wouldn't allow the White Council to perform executions outside the existing legal system, and I'm not sure it would be practical/workable to keep warlocks imprisoned for long enough to go through the legal system -- some of the weaker/less skilled ones, maybe, but not anybody who could get to the NN, or mind-control people, etc. without ritual gear. Even Kravos, who wasn't that powerful or skilled, was able to set up the whole Nightmare thing from prison.

[Yuillegan]

Sure, but they all are within some nation or other. The White Council wouldn't have a voice in the UN, and by international law they'd ultimately be subject to regular nations. They don't have an NN territory inaccessible to vanilla mortals like the various Fae nations, and the Laws prevent them from just taking over some nation as a "safe zone" by mind-controlling its leadership as the White Court could do.

Hah! International law only really applies to the smaller nations. The big nations just do as they please. And no court could really enforce their justice. The whole problem is that the entire organization of the White Council is composed of too many disparate nations and is too spread out. One of the main reasons why the White Council stays out of politics in the first place. I am sure they could disappear if they needed to. How do you think they survived the Inquisition?

Yeah, I didn't really mean so much opposition to executing warlocks in principle (even nations and US states that don't have the death penalty might change the law if they found out about e.g. what Kemmler did).

More that nations wouldn't allow the White Council to perform executions outside the existing legal system, and I'm not sure it would be practical/workable to keep warlocks imprisoned for long enough to go through the legal system -- some of the weaker/less skilled ones, maybe, but not anybody who could get to the NN, or mind-control people, etc. without ritual gear. Even Kravos, who wasn't that powerful or skilled, was able to set up the whole Nightmare thing from prison.

I doubt the states that oppose the death penalty would change. The principles of the argument haven't changed, just the targets. But you never know. The real question is would they even be able to tell the White Council was executing warlocks in the first place. But you are right, the current justice system in any country isn't sophisticated or strong enough really to contain/control warlocks.

[vultur]

I am sure they could disappear if they needed to. How do you think they survived the Inquisition?

No way to know, we really don't know how that worked in the DV. (The implication, IIRC, is that it was more heavily involved in witch trials than the RL Inquisition.) But the Inquisition was pretty geographically limited, even relative to the 'known world' of that era (basically Europe and the Mediterranean). Certainly it had no power in the Eastern Orthodox or Islamic areas, and I think it was usually much more localized than that.

I doubt the states that oppose the death penalty would change. The principles of the argument haven't changed, just the targets.

I don't know... I think the picture changes a lot if you can no longer rely on prisons to keep people away from the general population, because warlocks can just use illusions/mind-bending to escape or walk out through the NN or something (or if imprisoned warlocks can still do harm remotely through something like Kravos' Nightmare ritual or demon summoning or...)

[ClintACK]

Given the existence of a perfect magical prison, I'd imagine that arguments against the death penalty would be on stronger ground. We could even see the White Council shift to using Demonreach instead of decapitation.

But even for non-capital offenses, it's hard to imagine mortal governments just handing over magical criminals for trial and punishment in an entirely independent system of government. That works fine right now, when those magical criminals and independent courts officially don't exist, but after?

And the merging of magical justice into mortal justice comes with all kinds of pitfalls. Could mortal Outsider-cultists sue the White Council and demand federal protection of their religious freedoms? If a federal judge issues a writ of habeas corpus demanding the production in court of some eldritch horror from the lower cells... what happens?

[Yuillegan]

No way to know, we really don't know how that worked in the DV. (The implication, IIRC, is that it was more heavily involved in witch trials than the RL Inquisition.) But the Inquisition was pretty geographically limited, even relative to the 'known world' of that era (basically Europe and the Mediterranean). Certainly it had no power in the Eastern Orthodox or Islamic areas, and I think it was usually much more localized than that.

True enough, Jim hasn't been that specific. But that is exactly it: the geography is a huge limit on the power to take on the White Council. For instance, what if the White Council decided to shelter in China or Russia? What then would the US or the UK etc do? Go to war? Or the reverse, what if they decided to take shelter from Russia in the USA? Perhaps there is a scenario where each nation individually decides to persecute the supernatural (whilst simultaneously fighting off whatever supernatural nations are attacking them, along with any mortal nations as well). Some nations might be more successful than others but almost all would attempt to harness some of this "new" power and knowledge. No, the real success would always be from nations that allied with the "friendly" supernaturals like the White Council and Vadderung and Knights of the Cross.

I don't know... I think the picture changes a lot if you can no longer rely on prisons to keep people away from the general population, because warlocks can just use illusions/mind-bending to escape or walk out through the NN or something (or if imprisoned warlocks can still do harm remotely through something like Kravos' Nightmare ritual or demon summoning or...)

A little perhaps, assuming they had the time to actually change the law. If they were under assault it might be different. But ClintACK is right, it is a very complicated issue. More likely vigilante justice would increase. Assuming these governments managed to stay together at all.