Author Topic: Battle Ground !!!SPOILERS!!!  (Read 16654 times)

Offline Yuillegan

  • White Council
  • Posty McPostington
  • *****
  • Posts: 1384
  • Forum Moderator
    • View Profile
Battle Ground !!!SPOILERS!!!
« on: July 11, 2020, 05:29:28 AM »
Potential spoilers follow here.

I was thinking the other day about the blurb of Battle Ground and a few things occured to me.

I feel that the end of Peace Talks will involve Harry thinking he has sorted out his issues, a victory of sorts if you like. He will have saved Thomas, himself, everyone and maybe exposed the bad guys openly. And they will be MEGA pissed off. Which causes them to try the less subtle way i.e. wiping out Harry and Chicago or whatever. And Harry will realize his massive miscalculation and realize there is an impending army coming to destroy everyone he loves. That will be the cliff hanger - a Titan and her army bearing down on his city and everything he holds dear.

But why is it that Harry specifically has to kill this Titan. Why him? If this thing is so ridiculously powerful where are the other guardians, where is the White Council, where is...Mab?

Because if (and this isn't yet known) the Last Titan and the Fomor Empress are one and the same (likely), why isn't Mab or Titania or both fighting this being?

Why isn't Ebenezar and the Merlin and LtW etc not responsible for killing this being?

The only logical conclusion is they are not available. Perhaps Winter and Summer alike are besieged. Perhaps Titania elects not to help (in her every more mysterious way). Perhaps the Gates come under major assault. Perhaps Mab is crippled somehow.

Maybe the White Council tries to help but is scattered to the wind. Maybe it's a divide and conquer thing.

Thoughts?
Hi, I'm a moderator. We're here to help. Please remain calm. Don't go outdoors.

Offline vultur

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 3942
    • View Profile
Re: Battle Ground !!!SPOILERS!!!
« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2020, 07:48:10 AM »
Harry's goal might not be just to kill the Titan but to prevent the battle from destroying Chicago. If Mab and the Senior Council throw down with another being on roughly Mab's level, there's going to be a lot of collateral damage.

Eb's force blasts were messing up stone buildings weighing thousands of tons in Chichen Itza, IIRC. Modern buildings are way more fragile. And Eb is just one member of the Senior Council. Mab messes up the weather just by being on the mortal world... if she actually were throwing lots of power around...

An outright fight with Mab-level beings on both sides IMO could easily destroy the entire city.

Offline Conspiracy Theorist

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2981
    • View Profile
Re: Battle Ground !!!SPOILERS!!!
« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2020, 08:04:15 AM »
Because Harry has the tools to kill or wound a Titan following Skin Game. If you note the book cover,  that isn’t a knob that his wizards staff has on the end, and on Demonreach he has the capacity to “take below” the most powerful of entities as well.

Harry is being set up by Uriel, Mab and Vadderung to deal with the Nemesis agents behind the lines where their natures constrain them from dealing with them. The White Council as currently constituted are near useless for this, the Grey Council are not, expect them to come to the fore.

Expect Harry (gods help us) to be the surgical strike, making lots of Clash of the Titans references, as the Apocalypse is not yet here.

Offline Mira

  • Needs A Life
  • ***
  • Posts: 24358
    • View Profile
Re: Battle Ground !!!SPOILERS!!!
« Reply #3 on: July 11, 2020, 10:55:23 AM »
Because Harry has the tools to kill or wound a Titan following Skin Game. If you note the book cover,  that isn’t a knob that his wizards staff has on the end, and on Demonreach he has the capacity to “take below” the most powerful of entities as well.

Harry is being set up by Uriel, Mab and Vadderung to deal with the Nemesis agents behind the lines where their natures constrain them from dealing with them. The White Council as currently constituted are near useless for this, the Grey Council are not, expect them to come to the fore.

Expect Harry (gods help us) to be the surgical strike, making lots of Clash of the Titans references, as the Apocalypse is not yet here.

You took the words right off my fingers.  Harry goes because he is the only one who can.

Offline Conspiracy Theorist

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2981
    • View Profile
Re: Battle Ground !!!SPOILERS!!!
« Reply #4 on: July 11, 2020, 01:12:10 PM »
I really hope we get to see Harry use Demonreach to imprison for the first time.

He can get the blood of a Titan using the spear and use the summoning circle at Demonreach and the blood to bring it to Demonreach and take them below. I doubt anyone else other than a another major entity could injure a Titan or constrain them. Harry is the only mortal who can do both.

Offline Yuillegan

  • White Council
  • Posty McPostington
  • *****
  • Posts: 1384
  • Forum Moderator
    • View Profile
Re: Battle Ground !!!SPOILERS!!!
« Reply #5 on: July 11, 2020, 01:23:06 PM »
I get that Harry ends up being the only one who can. I am more interested in the why. This thing is likely stronger than Mab or Titania. But Eb is the Council's hitman. So why not use him? See where I am going with this? I think a lot of people will be tied up with other problems or dead.
Hi, I'm a moderator. We're here to help. Please remain calm. Don't go outdoors.

Offline Mira

  • Needs A Life
  • ***
  • Posts: 24358
    • View Profile
Re: Battle Ground !!!SPOILERS!!!
« Reply #6 on: July 11, 2020, 02:31:46 PM »
I get that Harry ends up being the only one who can. I am more interested in the why. This thing is likely stronger than Mab or Titania. But Eb is the Council's hitman. So why not use him? See where I am going with this? I think a lot of people will be tied up with other problems or dead.

  It does have a lot to do with the fact that he is the Warden of Demonreach.   I believe a Titan is immortal, they were regarded as gods at one time.  If I remember my Greek mythology correctly, and I just checked Bulfinch's Mythology, they were finally imprisoned in a deep pit by Zeus wielding thunderbolts.   There is only one place equipped to imprison the likes of a Titan outside of Hades, and that is Demonreach, so enter Harry.  I wouldn't be shocked if he is forced to use the power from the ley lines that run under it in the end.  The ones that Rashid warned him about not using because he didn't have the knowledge or skill yet back in Turn Coat.  Well, perhaps in that year he lived on the island he got that knowledge?

Offline Conspiracy Theorist

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2981
    • View Profile
Re: Battle Ground !!!SPOILERS!!!
« Reply #7 on: July 11, 2020, 05:40:07 PM »
Harry might have to, to power the summoning for something like a Titan. The other source of power at his disposal are the artifacts, he will have to use one or the other, and as the blood is on the spear he would be best using those, the blood would amplify the summoning.

The artifacts have been various things in history and mythology, I would bet that the spear is actually Zeus thunderbolt. Remember that was Nicky’s true target, the Grail his cup, etc, etc. So Harry wielding a godly thunderbolt to put a Titan into a deep pit is not such a stretch. He has his huge staff kinetic energy spell to fling it like a god

Doing something like that though would effectively be a declaration that he is a nuclear power to the rest of the supernatural world, more powerful singularly than the White Council collectively.

Offline vultur

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 3942
    • View Profile
Re: Battle Ground !!!SPOILERS!!!
« Reply #8 on: July 11, 2020, 06:01:10 PM »
Doing something like that though would effectively be a declaration that he is a nuclear power to the rest of the supernatural world, more powerful singularly than the White Council collectively.

Well, Harry is still a member of the White Council, so whatever he does may get credited to the White Council and/or Winter to some degree.

But being the Warden of Demonreach gives Harry absolutely incredible destructive power (given that he can release the prisoners). Oaths are pretty binding to supernatural beings: if Harry got some ancient horror to take an oath in exchange for releasing it...

But Harry's not going to actually use that power (before the BAT), it would be far too destructive/too much collateral damage.

Offline Conspiracy Theorist

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2981
    • View Profile
Re: Battle Ground !!!SPOILERS!!!
« Reply #9 on: July 11, 2020, 08:30:44 PM »
The Merlin has plans to throw Harry out of the White Council, and they generally don’t know his relationship to Demonreach or his super weapon arsenal, or his access to soul fire (likely needed to use the weapons), or his capability to lead the Wild Hunt.

Terribly funny if they throw him out and he establishes himself as a separate Baron of Demonreach under the Accords, and they threaten him in breach of the Accords and he points out he on his own now outclasses the entire White Council, and would anybody like to join him? Half the senior Council are North America, and the majority of the Wardens look to Harry now, as do the minor practitioners of the Paranet so the Merlin could be left with Christos and Ancient Mai, the old guard and a lot of wizards ill suited to combat but are likely to jump ship to whoever can keep them safe.

The Merlin wouldn’t consider the young wardens or Paranetters of having any consequence, a bad miscalculation, on top of his lack of knowledge as regards Demonreach his super weapons and his association with Vadderung (Odin taught the original Merlin magic), Uriel, Hades even the Erlking etc, they merely think he is Mabs creature.


Harry really can’t release the prisoners, they may be Nemfected and their word untrustworthy.

Offline Avernite

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 732
    • View Profile
Re: Battle Ground !!!SPOILERS!!!
« Reply #10 on: July 11, 2020, 09:41:52 PM »
My thought:

Mab and Titania have a purpose. Their purpose is to guard the Outer Gates or guard reality from Mab. Their purpose is not 'continue eternal feuds with the Fomor', they have agents and vassals for that.

I think Mab and Titania will send the necessary resources to deal with this Titan, if indeed she's Fomor. Harry is one of those resources. I'd expect him to have Molly, Sarissa, Lea, Gruff or Fix along with him (maybe even 2 or 3), as well as maybe sundry Fae or Changelings as footsoldiers. He's done it before when he 'hijacked' the Wild Hunt, after all.

Offline Yuillegan

  • White Council
  • Posty McPostington
  • *****
  • Posts: 1384
  • Forum Moderator
    • View Profile
Re: Battle Ground !!!SPOILERS!!!
« Reply #11 on: July 11, 2020, 11:23:53 PM »
Avernite - Yes, that is the true purpose of Faerie. Doesn't mean they don't have feuds and wars and other enemies. And you're assuming the Fomor are not connected to the Outsiders in some way. There is lots of supporting hints about the connections, and we know during this summit that Outsiders are summoned. And I think you fail to consider the consequences for Faerie should this Titaness succeed. She intends to reshape the mortal landscape. For a bunch of creatures who rely on mortals, you'd think they might be wary of that. Not to mention if she ends up freeing Outsiders/Old Ones etc. Also, when you talk of resources you're assuming Harry can actually kill a Titan. Unless it's on Halloween or a similar conjunction it isn't possible (as far as we know). But then there is the small matter of actually damaging her. She might not be so vulnerable to mortal weapons as the foes Harry has previously faced. Read her description again - she's above anything he's fought before. So the question become why wouldn't one or more of the Queens take the field to lead their forces? A Titan isn't a minor inconvenience. It's a major-league threat. Which means if they don't show they actively don't care for the loss of human life and reshaping of the world (which we know they do...to a point), or they are otherwise obstructed/distracted. My guess is an assault on the Outer Gates for Mab and Titania just won't show...which suggests certain things about her character and motives. There is a whole theory on Titania which makes sense about this.

Conspiracy Theorist - We don't actually know it's the Merlin who wishes to throw Harry out. It could just as easily be Cristos or even Mai. All the Senior Council know of his relationship to Demonreach, and are basically aware of what that means. I suspect other senior wizards would have similar knowledge. Especially some Wardens or those mysterious thugs working for Cristos. I assume by "super weapon arsenal" you are referring to his weapons of Christ? Also I can tell you now you don't need Soulfire to use them - why would Nic want them if he couldn't use them? The only thing needed is human will.

If Dresden did establish himself as a Freeholding Lord he would be playing right into the hands of the Black Council. Civil War is to be avoided at this stage, the Council is not yet the evil oppressor that needs to be opposed (although I suspect that is where the story will go assuming it survives the next conflict). I don't know where you are getting the idea that the Merlin doesn't know about what Demonreach is...it has been confirmed that the Senior Council all know about it and what it does. It is the White Council at large who is mostly unaware. And I am sure the Senior Council each know a bit about Harry's allies. At least two of them specialize in information gathering (Martha Liberty and Mai), Rashid seems to have more on the ball than most so it's safe to say he is at least aware of these events (especially as he seems to keep an eye on Dresden), if Cristos is black council I would expect him to have his own special resources in regards to information, Ebenezar knows definitely about Vadderung, the Merlin is at the top of an information gathering organisation (and is the most powerful wizard on the planet) so I wouldn't be surprised if he had the gist of what Harry has been up to. LtW is the only one I am not sure of but time will tell there. Harry won't release any of the creatures unless he is tricked or is somehow manipulated/forced to. Nemfection aside, they are just mean and horrible and all it would do is cause pain and misery to a whole bunch of people. And considering beings of the Naagloshii level are the least dangerous beings in there...it gives you an idea of just how bad that would be. And I think Dresden hasn't even found the inmate(s) in maximum security yet.

I highly doubt the spear is Zeus' thunderbolt. It's most likely his staff with the Spear of Destiny (or Spear of Longinus) attached as he literally just picked it up last book. As a second choice I would say it is Gungnir (Odin's spear) because of his relationship to Odin.

Mira - Yes, you are largely correct. They were imprisoned in the deepest and most terrible pit in the Greek Underworld, known as Tartarus. This was after the Olympian Gods defeated them in battle. Zeus' thunderbolt supposedly blew the top off their base of Mount Othyrs. But it took the combined might of Zeus, Poseidon and Hades to defeat their father Cronus/Kronos. Which puts in perspective just how strong these Titans are.

I can see how Harry might achieve it, but he still has to get the Titan to Demonreach. Which might not be so easy. Not to mention that his job is to kill the Titan, not imprison. I agree that I think when Harry finally does end up imprisoning whoever he will end up tapping that well of power.

Hi, I'm a moderator. We're here to help. Please remain calm. Don't go outdoors.

Offline Walter the skull

  • Participant
  • *
  • Posts: 81
    • View Profile
Re: Battle Ground !!!SPOILERS!!!
« Reply #12 on: July 12, 2020, 12:31:23 AM »
Yuillegan:  I agree that the Titan is the Fomor queen.  I also kind of wonder if Vaderung is also Zues?  He keeps saying that people have many mantles.  We know the fairy queens may be Hecate, Kringle is part of Winter, I don't think it's that far fetched to think that he may have a place in the Greek pantheon too. 

Offline Yuillegan

  • White Council
  • Posty McPostington
  • *****
  • Posts: 1384
  • Forum Moderator
    • View Profile
Re: Battle Ground !!!SPOILERS!!!
« Reply #13 on: July 12, 2020, 12:40:04 AM »
It's certainly possible.

In literary terms Odin is generally associated with Mecury/Hermes who was associated with Thoth.

But it's Jim's world so who knows?

But I definitely think he has more masks and reveals.
Hi, I'm a moderator. We're here to help. Please remain calm. Don't go outdoors.

Offline Mira

  • Needs A Life
  • ***
  • Posts: 24358
    • View Profile
Re: Battle Ground !!!SPOILERS!!!
« Reply #14 on: July 12, 2020, 12:58:30 AM »
Quote

I can see how Harry might achieve it, but he still has to get the Titan to Demonreach. Which might not be so easy. Not to mention that his job is to kill the Titan, not imprison. I agree that I think when Harry finally does end up imprisoning whoever he will end up tapping that well of power.

I don't think she can be killed, if Zeus couldn't do it, I don't think we can expect Harry to be able to.
However  he gained an arsenal of very dangerous weapons in Skin Game.  Drawing on he primal power of the ley line that runs under Demonreach he might be able to disable her or trick her somehow into a confrontation on the island, there with the help of Alfred, imprison her in one of the deepest holes.