Christmas Eve and Peace Talks theory (spoilers)

[Snark Knight]

Snakeboy’s death curse “die alone!” Will probably mean Harry will never have a long-term romantic relationship.

Technically, he's already fulfilled that. The curse even echoed when he was shot.

[Arjan]

That isn't the point, it didn't matter if it was fake or not, the message was those relics were not meant to be used for healing.

Which is strange because in early christianity miracles were essential. It was about demonstrating the power of christ to gain converts.

Exactly,  if Murphy dies, he has a job for her soul along side her father.
Problem with that Murphy isn't Michael.  Where as Michael is happy with God's retirement plan.  I don't think Murphy will ever accept it.   Her cutting off that cast in the trailer is an example of it.  I am not sure that making Murphy a wisdom guru is the best idea for her either.

People grow older and sooner or later they accept that. Including very active people, Karen is not different. That is life.

And always a price, which may be why Murphy isn't helping Harry put that bike together on Christmas Eve.

Probably the same reason Michael is not helping Harry to put that bike together. It is Harry's task.

I think that is a reach..  Listen to Wind is a medicine man/shaman and a real medical doctor, most of the treatments we've seen him perform have been standard medical care.  The closest to magical "cures" though it was mostly to stop pain was the thing that Eb put on Harry's wrist when it was so badly burned by Mavra back in Blood Rites.. However if it did any healing, it was very little.  The Alphas are shape shifters as is Listen to Wind, but it is their own bodies they manipulate not that of others.

Listen to wind is not a mere alpha, he could do it if Jim wanted it.

Or Molly might want to help. She can not help for free but she might create the circumstances, there are ways to work around that.

Mab also became aware of the infection in Lea soon enough to treat it, what is more for Lea to still be aware enough to let her treated.  In Maeve's case it had just gone too far and had taken over and the only solution for her was death.

It was still possible if Maeve on one level wanted it. That was the difference between Maeve and Lea. Lea tried to fight it and when that failed she was ashamed for it and went to Mab, see her explanation to Molly about what that shame meant for her in Changes. It was that will to stay herself that made it possible for Mab to cure Lea, see Sarissa's explanation at the end of Cold Days.

Maeve embraced the infection as a way to solve her Mommy issues.  Sarissa asked her and told her she could be cured as well but Maeve did not want to.

[vultur]

And always a price, which may be why Murphy isn't helping Harry put that bike together on Christmas Eve.

I'm not sure how much weight we should put on Murphy not being there on Christmas Eve. Even if Harry and Murphy's relationship is intact after PT/BG, I am not sure they would be living together by Christmas. There's only 10 months between SG and "Christmas Eve". Susan and Harry didn't move in together and they were dating longer than that.

And Harry might be more cautious now with Maggie (say if Murphy moved in, Maggie started seeing her as family, and then things went bad...)

I think that is a reach..  Listen to Wind is a medicine man/shaman and a real medical doctor, most of the treatments we've seen him perform have been standard medical care.  The closest to magical "cures" though it was mostly to stop pain was the thing that Eb put on Harry's wrist when it was so badly burned by Mavra back in Blood Rites.. However if it did any healing, it was very little.

Yes, magical healing in the Dresdenverse seems very limited when done by mortal wizards. The Fae seem a lot better at it - might be because their magic is more life/nature oriented, but I think a lot of it is that the Second Law makes study of the field questionable (much like the White Council's terrible mental defense training pre-TC).

It was still possible if Maeve on one level wanted it. That was the difference between Maeve and Lea. Lea tried to fight it and when that failed she was ashamed for it and went to Mab, see her explanation to Molly about what that shame meant for her in Changes. It was that will to stay herself that made it possible for Mab to cure Lea, see Sarissa's explanation at the end of Cold Days.

The "will" question is somewhat interesting here since the Fae generally do not have free will.

Possibly the issue was that Maeve was born a changeling and thus had some lingering degree of mortal personality under her Fae Mantle, even after the Choice (CD implies that there is a tiny trace left even in Mab...). The nature of the Winter Fae would presumably be absolutely opposed to Nemesis, as they are anti-Outsider, so Lea and Sith fought against it. But Maeve might be a tiny bit less constrained by her nature, so didn't really fight it since it fit her goals.

[Arjan]

The "will" question is somewhat interesting here since the Fae generally do not have free will.

Will and Free will are not the same. Lack of free will does not mean weak willed. It just means that their will is constrained in some way by their nature. Vadderung has a very strong will as shown in Changes.

Possibly the issue was that Maeve was born a changeling and thus had some lingering degree of mortal personality under her Fae Mantle, even after the Choice (CD implies that there is a tiny trace left even in Mab...). The nature of the Winter Fae would presumably be absolutely opposed to Nemesis, as they are anti-Outsider, so Lea and Sith fought against it. But Maeve might be a tiny bit less constrained by her nature, so didn't really fight it since it fit her goals.

We know that Maeve did not do her job for about 150 years and Molly has to work very hard because of that. I think she kept much of her personality intact. It was just not a nice personality.

[Mira]

Which is strange because in early christianity miracles were essential. It was about demonstrating the power of christ to gain converts.

 That had more to do with faith than the articles themselves.  Also if you will remember it was Jesus who performed the miracles not an article of clothing or object. 

I'm not sure how much weight we should put on Murphy not being there on Christmas Eve. Even if Harry and Murphy's relationship is intact after PT/BG, I am not sure they would be living together by Christmas. There's only 10 months between SG and "Christmas Eve". Susan and Harry didn't move in together and they were dating longer than that.

And Harry might be more cautious now with Maggie (say if Murphy moved in, Maggie started seeing her as family, and then things went bad...)

As a close friend who knows what he has been through, she'd have been there if she could.  Whether Harry and her were living together or not shouldn't make any difference.  I think it is very significant the list of who did show up and went out of their way to show kindness to Harry. 

People grow older and sooner or later they accept that. Including very active people, Karen is not different. That is life.

Or they don't, Murphy has a history of wanting to deal with those kinds of struggles alone, she'd push Harry away big time.

Probably the same reason Michael is not helping Harry to put that bike together. It is Harry's task.

No, she isn't helping because she isn't there.

Listen to wind is not a mere alpha, he could do it if Jim wanted it.

Yes, and Harry could also sprout wings and fly if Jim wanted it, the question comes down to whether or not it would improve the story if he did it that way.

It was still possible if Maeve on one level wanted it. That was the difference between Maeve and Lea. Lea tried to fight it and when that failed she was ashamed for it and went to Mab, see her explanation to Molly about what that shame meant for her in Changes. It was that will to stay herself that made it possible for Mab to cure Lea, see Sarissa's explanation at the end of Cold Days.

Maeve embraced the infection as a way to solve her Mommy issues.  Sarissa asked her and told her she could be cured as well but Maeve did not want to.

Maeve's "Mommy" issues may have been the preexisting condition that made her vulnerable to the infection in the first place.  Thus once the infection got a foot hold it was no longer possible to cure her unlike Lea.

Will and Free will are not the same. Lack of free will does not mean weak willed. It just means that their will is constrained in some way by their nature. Vadderung has a very strong will as shown in Changes.

I think you have to set Vadderung apart, he is considered a god, so for him the question of will or free will quite different.

[Arjan]

That had more to do with faith than the articles themselves.  Also if you will remember it was Jesus who performed the miracles not an article of clothing or object. 

And the apostles. And the saints. And the martyrs, And the relics. Early Christianity is full of it. It is all gods power of course but stories are important for converting people.

As a close friend who knows what he has been through, she'd have been there if she could.  Whether Harry and her were living together or not shouldn't make any difference.  I think it is very significant the list of who did show up and went out of their way to show kindness to Harry.  Or they don't, Murphy has a history of wanting to deal with those kinds of struggles alone, she'd push Harry away big time.No, she isn't helping because she isn't there.
Yes, and Harry could also sprout wings and fly if Jim wanted it, the question comes down to whether or not it would improve the story if he did it that way.

He did it with Michael and it went quite well. The point was that there are several avenues if he wants to that are far better than coins and I believe Jim can make them work.

But Karen does not want to so I believe she will settle down in the end. That is what most people do who survive to an old age and Karen is smart enough to understand that. She is not just driven by her emotions.

She has always been realistic and rational. Yes she will turn up when Harry needs her because she is a good friend but that won’t stop her main story line.

The idea that she suddenly throws all her brains aside because she can not get older like a sort of midlife crisis in overdrive is somewhat out of character.

Maeve's "Mommy" issues may have been the preexisting condition that made her vulnerable to the infection in the first place.  Thus once the infection got a foot hold it was no longer possible to cure her unlike Lea.

Because Lea kept fighting. She had the will to do so. Not free will but a strong will. Maeves mommy issues motivated her to make a deal and stop fighting.

I think you have to set Vadderung apart, he is considered a god, so for him the question of will or free will quite different.

The red king also had a strong will. Mother winter pinned Harry down with her will. I do not think you have to set gods aside, they still are in the same universe. My point was that absence of free will does not mean absence of will.

[vultur]

Will and Free will are not the same. Lack of free will does not mean weak willed. It just means that their will is constrained in some way by their nature.

I'll agree there - "willpower" is not the same thing as Dresdenverse Free Will, which is about being able to act against and/or change your nature.

The issue I have is that Lea and Maeve are both high-ranking members of the Winter Court, heavily defined by opposition to the Outsiders. It seems to me that the nature of the Winter Lady ought to be utterly opposed to Nemesis, so not fighting it to the greatest degree possible ought to have been against her nature - and thus required Free Will.

I think she kept much of her personality intact. It was just not a nice personality.

Oh there's definitely some of her personality left, but from what Bob says... after 150 years she really shouldn't be able to act against the dictates of the Mantle...

As a close friend who knows what he has been through, she'd have been there if she could.  Whether Harry and her were living together or not shouldn't make any difference.  I think it is very significant the list of who did show up and went out of their way to show kindness to Harry. 

I see what you're saying, but the story time span is very limited. I'm sure Harry and Murphy would do *something* Christmas-y together if they're still together at the time of the story, but for all we know that could be the next day.

[Mira]

I see what you're saying, but the story time span is very limited. I'm sure Harry and Murphy would do *something* Christmas-y together if they're still together at the time of the story, but for all we know that could be the next day.

If she is still alive... I don't think she is.

[Arjan]

If she is still alive... I don't think she is.

There is a more simple reason why she did not turn up. It would have been a spoiler. Especially for those who want her dead.

But really she is upstairs. She is just asleep because well wounded, tired and a demanding partner. Charity is asleep as well. She had to prepare all that food.

Or Charity and Karen are upstairs chatting. Also possible.

[Mira]

There is a more simple reason why she did not turn up. It would have been a spoiler. Especially for those who want her dead.

But really she is upstairs. She is just asleep because well wounded, tired and a demanding partner. Charity is asleep as well. She had to prepare all that food.

Or Charity and Karen are upstairs chatting. Also possible.

  It is possible, but I am sorry but that doesn't account for it.  Have you ever suffered a really close loss and then did your best to carry on through the holidays for others?   I have, and that is the mood I am getting here.  Yes, a lot of people have suffered and died, but that doesn't account for it over all.  It is a very close personal loss, and Harry is carrying on because it isn't just him anymore.

Harry's focus is little Maggie, because life goes on, to do nothing and curl up would be worse.  If Murphy was upstairs chatting with Charity?  Harry's mood would be much lighter, hell, so would Michael's.  No, it isn't just the thousands that suffered and died, it is a personal loss.  Could either Eb or Thomas dying account for it?  Yes, and I've said that, but all the more reason if she could, for Murphy to be at his side handing him a wrench,wisdom, and comfort, not just Mouse.  She is not, that is significant.

[Arjan]

  It is possible, but I am sorry but that doesn't account for it.  Have you ever suffered a really close loss and then did your best to carry on through the holidays for others?   I have, and that is the mood I am getting here.  Yes, a lot of people have suffered and died, but that doesn't account for it over all.  It is a very close personal loss, and Harry is carrying on because it isn't just him anymore.

Harry's focus is little Maggie, because life goes on, to do nothing and curl up would be worse.  If Murphy was upstairs chatting with Charity?  Harry's mood would be much lighter, hell, so would Michael's.  No, it isn't just the thousands that suffered and died, it is a personal loss.  Could either Eb or Thomas dying account for it?  Yes, and I've said that, but all the more reason if she could, for Murphy to be at his side handing him a wrench,wisdom, and comfort, not just Mouse.  She is not, that is significant.

We are talking of maybe hundreds or even more wounded and dead and Harry feels guilty about it. He got them into it or accepted their help. He must have known many of them and he learned to know them better just before they died. Of course he is down, Molly is quite correct here but Molly wouldn't talk that way if Karen was dead because of him. That would have been far more dramatic.

I think the reason Karen did not show up is quite simple and has nothing to do with her status at the end of Battle Ground and everything to do with Jim not wanting us to know what her status is. It is to prevent spoilers.

We are only shown people who we knew would survive. I would not draw conclusions based on who was there or not.

[Mira]

We are talking of maybe hundreds or even more wounded and dead and Harry feels guilty about it. He got them into it or accepted their help. He must have known many of them and he learned to know them better just before they died. Of course he is down, Molly is quite correct here but Molly wouldn't talk that way if Karen was dead because of him. That would have been far more dramatic.

Murphy doesn't have to be dead because of him..  What Molly did takes some of the pain away for all of those dying and getting hurt..  However that doesn't take away the personal pain of losing someone that close.  It is hard to explain, Molly's gesture helps with Harry's pain/ guilt over the many.. However nothing is going to relieve him of the pain of loss of one or more of the three I mentioned.  There is nothing dramatic she can do or say at this point in time, that is why the sisterly kiss.  That speaks volumes..
She is saying, "I'm so sorry for your loss.."  Because there are no words beyond that for the pain.

I think the reason Karen did not show up is quite simple and has nothing to do with her status at the end of Battle Ground and everything to do with Jim not wanting us to know what her status is. It is to prevent spoilers.

Again, possible, but I might also point out he pointedly warns about spoilers before we go to read it.   That is my point, I think most of us had a good idea from what Jim has said the last couple of years that it was a given, lots of death and mayhem in Peace Talks, we didn't know about Battleground yet..   So no, he isn't spelling out who died, perhaps I am reading too much into it from personal pain from loss, but because of that, to me, the whole story reeks of Harry grieving and trying to carry on, and not over the thousands, but over the one, two, or three closest to him who are now dead.

We are only shown people who we knew would survive. I would not draw conclusions based on who was there or not.

True, however one can come up with good reasons why Thomas or Eb wouldn't be there, but not so much Murphy save perhaps she is so badly injured she is still in the hospital.  However the personal condolences, even from Mab for goodness sake, says one or more of the above is dead.

[Walter the skull]

I hope this is ok to say.

I think we're being messed with here.  Someone who may know something may be stirring the pot.  CaptMurphy maybe someone's sock.  He or she only made the profile 12 minutes before they posted.  Sarek's comment about the thread taking days to approve doesn't mesh with that.  Perhaps he knows captMurphy in RL in that case it makes sense.  Again this is just my opinion, and isn't meant to be negative towards captMurphy or Serek.

That being said, its always fun to discuss this stuff, so regardless of who the original poster is let's keep going.

I hope she survives and just has to learn to live with her new situation, and that it is used as an opportunity for her character to grow.  I think something will happen to heal her in end trilogy.

[Mira]

I hope this is ok to say.

I think we're being messed with here.  Someone who knows something is stirring the pot.  CaptMurphy is someone's sock.  He or she only made the profile 12 minutes before they posted.  Sarek's comment about the thread taking days to approve doesn't mesh with that.  Perhaps he knows captMurphy in RL in that case it makes sense.

That being said, its always fun to discuss this stuff, so regardless of who the original poster is let's keep going.

I hope she survives and just has to learn to live with her new situation, and that it is used as an opportunity for her character to grow.  I think something will happen to heal her in end trilogy.

Of course it is okay say what you are saying, and it is an upsetting topic to be sure.  However I don't think we are being messed with in any way.  There was nothing wrong with Capt Murphy's post, who dies, especially Murphy has been a topic passed back and forth for a few years now.  A big clue that Capt Murphy isn't trying to mess with anyone is if you read the posts they have been respectful through out.  Of course the moderators wouldn't have it any other way, but we've all seen things get pretty heated, that hasn't happened here.

I think these next two books are going to be pivotal to the series, and perhaps not with totally happy endings.  Me fears we may lose more than one favorite character by the end of Battle Ground.  Christmas Eve strongly hints at that, and that is what Capt Murphy was trying to express I believe.

[Walter the skull]

Mira:  Perhaps my word choices were poor.  I didn't mean to imply anything nefarious.  Everyone one here is pretty nice.  I'm enjoying the opportunity to discuss DF. 

I too went back reread Christmas eve shortly after the sample chapters started being posted.  I'm concerned about her lack of mention and Thomas's lack of mention.  I like them both.