Chapter 4 Drop

[123Chikadee]

@morriswalters: I do too actually, mainly b/c from a Doylist perspective it kinda narrows things down. i mean we don't see Harry doing too many parent-y things.

@Mira: I gotta brush up on the subject. But I'm not too sure if her nationality is even listed as American. You would think Susan would would lie about that due to trying to cover up tracks for Maggie.
I'm not sure it matters too much about her being American, she was taken from one country to another by people who had no legal
rights to her.

Oh yeah you're right that def happens. I wish we would get more details but I don't think we will, prolly b/c Butcher doesn't want to. True he can.

IIRC, it's the Carpenters who have 'legal' custody over Maggie. Though how they felt about any presumed danger Harry posed to Maggie wouldn't matter b/c it wouldn't be up to them but the law. And when kids get removed from biological parents its not always b/c of abuse, there are various factors that can go into cases. Harry's background would be looked into as a matter of course on top of having home visits from social workers. He might not get custody b/c of not having a steady income, his relationship w/ the police would be something they'd look into and who his associates and friends are. There's also where he's living now and they'd wonder where he got the finances for it. Hm, now that I really think on it, they'd probably be suspicious on that alone. 

[Arjan]

If Maggie was Guatemalan, but she wasn't, born in Guatemala maybe, but her parents were both American, that makes her a natural born American.

jus sanguinis or jus soli? Nationality can be a minefield and even make you stateless. Ask a lawyer to know how this will work out 

It wasn't an international adoption, little Maggie was always American.
Oh parents claim rights all of the time, or rather it happens.   Especially when babies are adopted, the mother gives the child up, but the father at the time cannot be found.  Some have come back even a few years later to demand their parental rights.  Now that maybe reformed, but oddly blood matters more than nurturing..  Also it isn't clear that little Maggie was formally adopted by the family she lived with, they may have merely fostered her.  Actually I cannot see Susan giving her baby up for adoption, if she had, the Red King might not have been able to trace her.  Whether Harry's name is on the birth certificate or not, there is something called a DNA test.

Yes, but not as often as they should.  However in those cases they need a lot of proof that the parent is harming the child.  There is no proof that Harry is abusing her nor that she is in danger where she is living.  Also I doubt that the Carpenters would have allowed her to go and live with Harry if they felt she was in danger by doing so.

She is a guest of the winter lady, that should offer some protection.

[123Chikadee]

@Arjan: Protection from mortals?

[Mira]

I'm not sure it matters too much about her being American, she was taken from one country to another by people who had no legal
rights to her.

As I said, she lived with a family, but did they formally adopt her?  Or did she just live with a family?
Harry never signed his parental rights away, so he still has a say, and yeah that can get very messy.

gotta brush up on the subject. But I'm not too sure if her nationality is even listed as American.

If her parents were both American, that is what she is, now perhaps at a later date she can claim duel citizenship because she was born in another country.  However she is still an American by birth.

Whether the Carpenters had legal custody or not to little Maggie, apparently they willingly signed her over to her biological father.   There was no court fight of any kind, if the Carpenters felt she was in danger by living with her father they would have raised the issue, then the law would have stepped in.  The Carpenters fostered her which is different from legal adoption.  In most cases the state encourages that children be reunited with their biological parents or parent.  While we know all the dangerous stuff Harry has been in the middle of, most of that is hidden from the vanilla law.  In short they'd wouldn't find any evidence that Maggie would be put in danger by living with her father.
Actually by that standard a lot of kids could be taken away from good parents because the occupation of the parent might make the kids a target, that doesn't happen.  I am talking politicians,
military, police, entertainment, and in some cases medical, all are occupations where the deranged or power hungry might consider their kids fair game, but these kids are not removed from their parents.   

[Arjan]

@Arjan: Protection from mortals?

That is a problem in Michael's house but the winter lady fixed that. Protection from mortals is not really an issue in Molly's apartment.

[Mira]

That is a problem in Michael's house but the winter lady fixed that. Protection from mortals is not really an issue in Molly's apartment.

  It also remains a fact that at some point for her mental and emotional health, little Maggie has to
be allowed to live a "normal" life, not be held prisoner where ever she lives to keep her safe.  She did go to school when she lived with the Carpenters, granted she had Mouse with her, she still has Mouse with her.  Now she gets to go out and play with other kids safely on the embassy compound, that is healthy on so many levels.

[123Chikadee]

@Mira: Well, I think we're going around in circles in regards to citizenship.
I meant parents that are incapable of taking care of their children. As in they aren't getting enough food, clothes, or shelter. Or if their parents are having trouble looking after themselves let alone their kids, such as addiction or severe illness or injury. Sorry, I should have been more clear.
@Arjan: Well what if they're mortal authorities trying to do their jobs and not mooks for supernatural hitters?

[Avernite]

I do think this chapter serves as a nice foil for Michael Carpenter.

In Skin Game, Michael the ex-fighter goes over things with Harry, they agree that Harry should be a dad, and Michael explains why Maggie should be quite safe.
In this chapter, Eb the current fighter goes over things with Harry, they fight that Harry shouldn't be a dad, and Eb is all worried about Maggie's safety.

[Mira]

I do think this chapter serves as a nice foil for Michael Carpenter.

In Skin Game, Michael the ex-fighter goes over things with Harry, they agree that Harry should be a dad, and Michael explains why Maggie should be quite safe.
In this chapter, Eb the current fighter goes over things with Harry, they fight that Harry shouldn't be a dad, and Eb is all worried about Maggie's safety.

  However the points go to Harry with his retort, "How did that work out?"   Eb wasn't in his daughter's life when she needed love and support growing up, then was a bit shocked when she
resented him and rebelled when he tried to teach her as an apprentice!  Think about it, he'd been out of her life for most of her life, now he was going to tell her what to do?  Which led to her going rouge and eventually because of the company she kept to her death.  Harry nearly lost his head because he was left in an orphanage and Justin got a hold of him.  Yeah, Eb may have saved him then, but he still continued to lie to Harry when he lived with him.. Alienated him a bit when Harry demanded answers in Blood Rites and still couldn't tell him he was his grandson.. Led further down the road to what happened in Changes..  So at this point in time Eb is going to lecture Harry on raising and keeping his daughter safe?  He just got pissed and began by being critical, not asking any questions at all.. Hell, the soul gaze he had of Harry back when he was sixteen should have given him some clues that that wasn't the way to go about talking to Harry about his daughter.  Only excuse remotely I'd give Eb is the stress he is under... Otherwise, yeah there was no other way for Harry to respond but with anger and emotion.

[123Chikadee]

@Avernite: Ooh, I like that, good catch.

@Mira: Yeah, but w/ Eb and LeFay I feel like that is a lot of coulda woulda shoulda at this point. Hopefully Eb and Harry get to fully talk it out and subvert the 'parting words regret' trope.

[cleoslemonade]

This chapter helps establish a theme in the book: pros and cons of familial love/closeness/responsibility. We've got it with Thomas/UpcomingBaby, Harry/MaggieJr, Harry/Eb, Eb/Margaret Sr, and hopefully we get some more starborn creation info and get some Margaret/Harry balance.
It's a big question. Harry getting all worked up here with Eb (and his previous conflicting viewpoint in Changes) shows that he isn't sure of the answer. He's just made a choice, deciding that love is more valuable than increased physical safety.
EB's got a lot of opinions on this as well. From Margaret's rebellions, he's got to have second thoughts on it as well. It reminds me of in Bigfoot on Campus, where

(click to show/hide)

Vampire Dad pushes killing on his daughter because if he admits it's wrong, he's been living his entire life wrong. 

Eb's in the same spot here. By admitting (even a little) that Harry should keep Maggie close, he's admitting that he was wrong to keep Margaret and Harry far, which is admitting that their emotional issues are partly his fault. If he can convince Harry (and himself) that keeping children distant is the only good option, his past actions are justified, and he was a Good Dad/Grandfather all along.

[Dina]

Just a comment: I have not idea what Guatemala law is,but I would suspect is similar than here in Argentina, because most Latin America has the same kind of law. We have jus soli. If you are born here, you are an Argentinian, no matter if your parents are from USA or China.
That said, we don't know where Maggie was born and where she was "formalized" with a document or something
Another complication is I don't remember what happened with Harry while he was "dead". Was he officially dead? But if he is officially alive there is no doubt that he has the rights. 

[Mira]

Just a comment: I have not idea what Guatemala law is,but I would suspect is similar than here in Argentina, because most Latin America has the same kind of law. We have jus soli. If you are born here, you are an Argentinian, no matter if your parents are from USA or China.
That said, we don't know where Maggie was born and where she was "formalized" with a document or something
Another complication is I don't remember what happened with Harry while he was "dead". Was he officially dead? But if he is officially alive there is no doubt that he has the rights.

Like I said, chance for duel citizenship down the road if she wants it.  Same here if you are born here you are American no matter what the parents are.  Now this question for you Dina, if you and your husband came here to visit and you had a baby, would it be Argentinian since I assume you are both citizens of Argentina or American since it was born here, or would it have a shot at both?

On the other, Harry's body wasn't found, so I imagine he is officially missing and given the blood evidence on the deck, assumed dead.  However assumed means he could be slightly alive, the law I think for "officially dead," is seven years if no other evidence turns up.  But I don't know what it is in Illinois if no body is found and is merely missing.

Eb's in the same spot here. By admitting (even a little) that Harry should keep Maggie close, he's admitting that he was wrong to keep Margaret and Harry far, which is admitting that their emotional issues are partly his fault. If he can convince Harry (and himself) that keeping children distant is the only good option, his past actions are justified, and he was a Good Dad/Grandfather all along.

Excellent point, I agree Eb does carry a lot of guilt over it as well.

[SpacedCowboy]

Re: citizenship ... I'm British, my wife is American, and my son was born in the US. So assuming that we retire back to the UK because of the inordinate cost of healthcare here in the US..

• my wife gets to claim British citizenship by right of marriage (after 3 years living there) and has American citizenship by right of birth
• my son has British Citizenship by right of descent, and American citizenship by right of birth

The only one who doesn't get to paddle in two pools is me

Getting back to Susan, we know she moved around a lot after leaving Harry, AFAIK there's no WOJ or anything in the books (although I'm not there yet on my re-read) to say specifically where Maggie was born, although it was probably not in the US.

I'm also reasonably sure that any child agency will look at Harry living with his own biological daughter, and maybe issue a 'slap on the wrist' for the unorthodox way that ended up, but say "all's well that ends well" and move on to cases where they really do need to intervene.

[123Chikadee]

@Dina: I can't quite remember what was said about Harry's post death, but I think he's been getting things together again. Though now that I think about it, the fact that he's been mysteriously dead/vanished for a year and w/ no way to tell mortal authorities what happened, I don't think that would look too good for his record. Sure, he could try to get custody, but he probably won't.
@Mira: Yeah I'm not too sure what the Illinois law has to say that.
@SpacedCowboy: Neat, I didn't know that. Well thing is, I think they'll take a look at Harry's history and decide that they do need to intervene.