Chapter 4 Drop

[Yuillegan]

Perhaps it's a controversial opinion, but I disliked the chapter a lot.

The argument felt forced, the foreshadowing was obvious and the entire scene was made to give Ebeneezer a reason to leave without properly talking to Harry. And to make Harry feel bad later...

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I disliked that when Harry said "Stars and stones" Eb said "Don't say that - you don't even know what it means". Harry might not be the smartest guy but hey, wouldn't you ask "Well what does it mean then?" to such an obvious cryptic hint? And why would Eb think the Carpenter house is safe as Edinburgh? It might be safe from purely spiritual beings but Michael without the sword (let alone the rest) is not much stronger than most. If Molly's people were around, sure. But how would Eb know about that? As for Mouse, he is powerful but falls before bullets as easily as any dog. It feels like JB literally was speaking through Eb then, to the audience (as he would in an interview or a Q&A), rather than what the character would actually know. It's a difficult thing to know what the character would actually know and make it convincing. But it's the essence of writing a good character. And JB does it reasonably well mostly, but sometimes he has a character essentially be a mouthpiece which annoys the hell out of me.

Beyond that I am endlessly frustrated that they do not discuss the terrible enemy about them. Why on earth wouldn't they discuss the "Black Council" and share some information? They had the perfect opportunity to do so. The whole chapter was wasted on a contrived argument. An argument they actually have had before. Whilst they may not have actually had an opportunity to say all the nasty things they have been holding onto, the gist has been done before. Worse still, Harry has done a complete 180 on his secrecy stance. In Changes he says no one will know where she is and even Eb won't. Now he has justified to himself that Maggie needs a parent more than complete safety, sure. But Eb wouldn't know that! Last he heard from Dresden, Harry wasn't even going to tell him about Maggie's location. So Harry acting like Eb is being crazy overprotective is absurd.

As Morris also points out, Maggie actually lived over double the natural human life. Eb might have outlived his daughter but she had a very good run as mortals go. Eb's method's didn't fail to protect her from the outside world. Maggie's choices failed to protect her from that. Eb's failings were that he failed to raise her well enough to make better choices and drove her to rebellion. Maggie chose the life she lead and chose to have two children (that we know of) to inherit her problems. Even Goodman Grey and Luccio point out her selfishness in that. Harry might be upset over the life he has had, but if there is someone he wants to blame it's Maggie over Eb. Eb treated him with kindness and respect and saved his life. Harry was impertinent and cruel with his accusations. Now Eb probably should have intervened before Justin took him but it seems deliberate that Harry entered the foster system and then disappeared altogether. Maybe Eb knew and thought it better. But it is just as likely that he didn't. You can choose to be angry about the hand fate dealt you or you can make the best of it. And to be honest, as rough as Harry had it, it sure could have been worse. A lot worse.

Knighted bishop is right as well, I think. Especially regarding Eb. Of course it is Harry's choice how to raise Maggie. But Eb is right too that Harry may end up regretting it. Harry is the kind of guy who wants to have his cake and eat it. He wants to have a loving family life AND save the world. Michael somehow sets this almost impossible standard. But the reality is (and probably for reasons that are not yet altogether clear or revealed) people around Harry die. All to do with who he is and what he might one day do.

I don't believe in cheap shots. There are cruel things, true things, lies and omissions. But Eb is only reminding Harry of what is true about who he is - whether Harry likes it or not. If Harry really wanted to keep Maggie safe AND be the good dad he would probably leave Chicago and move to somewhere a lot safer and maybe even off-grid. But he wants to also be in the action, he wants to keep fighting the darkness. A noble cause but one with considerable risk to both himself and those around him. And because of who he is especially, even more dangerous. His choice to interfere and to act may well lead to the deaths of more of those around him. In point of fact it already has. Dare I say it, the next two books will cover how Harry's arrogance leads to further deaths. We know there is a massive body count. He even talks about how arrogant he was (during the peace talks). So don't be so sure Harry is in the right here. Remember, Ebeneezer has been through this. That's why he is saying what he is saying. And JB loves to use Dresden as the example of consequences to your actions. 

And I agree with everyone that it makes almost zero sense to why Maggie wasn't called sooner. I get she has issues with new people. But they could have eased her in.

[Snark Knight]

Total cheap shot, for starters was it the infant Harry's fault that Lord Raith killed his mother?  Really? How much say does a six year old have in his father's living or dying by natural causes or other?  As for Susan, while Harry had very little say there as well, he didn't even know Maggie existed, and Susan came to him to save her.

His parents deaths weren't his fault, but they probably were targeted because of what he is. I don't think Lord Raith went to the trouble just to punish Maggie Sr. for leaving him - he wanted to interrupt the 'give birth to a starborn' plan. And Malcolm was probably killed to facilitate Harry eventually coming into Justin's custody, whether by Justin himself or by Lea.

Susan ... well, for all that it was either Susan dies alone or Susan + everyone else all die ... Harry still went along with Martin's plan at the end.

[Yuillegan]

True enough SK, but it doesn't alleviate the fact that because of who and what he is, Harry's mere presence is dangerous. But I agree with what your saying.

As for Susan, Harry's choices were just as much to blame for Changes as much as anything. He started the war, he had unprotected sex with Susan, as you say he chose to go along with the plan to wipe out the Reds using the blood curse. Harry always had options.

As I say above, the character of Harry Dresden is a study of unintended consequences. The whole series is.

 

[Dina]

Raith wanted revenge from Maggie, for her own actions. And perhaps he wanted to prevent the birth of a starborn...which was Maggie's choice. Harry did not choose when he was going to be born. Also, I am not sure that Raith interest in Maggie in the first place is not due to her being McCoy daughter. And of course Eb is right in something, Maggie did not die in childhood, but what kind of life did she have?

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I am wondering if perhaps she herself was raised by Lea

. Yes, probably Harry is the cause of Malcolm death but if you blame him for that then you can blame Maggie for attracting danger over herself.
And Harry is literally not free to go with Maggie to whatever place he liked. He is in Mab and Molly's service. And he is a warden of the WC, and the Warden of Demonreach. He has responsabilities to all those offices and he cannot just take a car and ride towards the sunset.
So yes, he said some bad things to Eb, things he shouldn't have said, but the old man was not faultless either. And Harry has a point, trying to hide Maggie had not helped her. Yes, Harry is guilty of Susan's death but perhaps if she has told him about their daughter he could have protect her better and the whole Chichen Itza scenario could have been prevented (I know, not interesting from a literary point of view)

I agree in something, I hate when Harry does not asks obvious questions like "what is the meaning of Stars & Stones?"

[Yuillegan]

I agree with you about Raith. Indeed, Harry didn't choose to be born (unless you believe in some really wild WAGs about Harry being a time traveller or a godling etc). I imagine Maggie Snr's life wasn't amazing as a child but like Harry's it prepared her for the real world much better than being coddled. Lea isn't totally wrong about that sort of thing. But everyone has their own views so that's all I will say.

You cannot blame the child for being attacked generally speaking (unless it's some sort of Omen type situation). Maggie Jnr, Harry, and Maggie Le Fay all inherited the problems to some degree of their forbears. Eb has some responsibility in this. But both Harry and Maggie Snr (and Eb) all chose to have kids (or chose to do things that might leave that possibility at any rate). They could have soley born their own burdens but now their children will share them. That's largely unavoidable.

Harry could live on Demonreach with Maggie, I doubt just about anything could get to them. But he could also renounce all his positions and hide. People do it all the time. Especially in countries that are war torn. Many people from Eastern Europe for example fled when war came to their door. No fault of their own but they risked death of themselves and their families by staying. It is like that all over the world, for all of human history. America is a young country as things go. It does not yet understand the horror of invasion. I truly hope it never does.

I never said Eb was faultless but Harry spoke rashly and cruelly. He took the low road. Even Harry realises this and is ashamed.

Susan could have told Harry...but aside from Doylist reasons I suspect she truly believed it was safer not to tell him. Just like Harry truly believes it is better for Maggie to be raised by him. Who can say their choices have been perfect? And as I say above it might well be that Dresden's choices make it worse for Maggie.

I know JB does this stuff to tease us and he gets off on it. But it still seems annoying and forced. It would at least be better if they got interrupted. It would still be frustrating but more believable than Harry ignoring that low hanging fruit.

[CrusherJen]

Still, my main fear about that story is that Mister is not mentioned.

If I'm remembering correctly, Mister was living with Karrin, so I'm not sure his non-appearance in the short story is too dire. At least, I hope not. 

But based in this latest drop, I'd say

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Eb's days are numbered, and by the end of Battle Ground at the latest, he'll be dead. I don't know whether or not Eb and Harry will have the chance to make up before it happens, but these are the kind of harsh words one regrets after a person passes... so I'm calling it now.

[Regenbogen]

@CrusherJen:
I think you are right. Mister is with Karrin and also you don't bring your cat to celebrate Christmas in another home. A dog, yes, but not a cat.

And as much as I hope it will not happen, I think you are right with

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Eb dying somewhere in the next two books without having cleared the air. But he won't die before the peace talks, because in the trailer he was there. Maybe after or during.
Oh, I so hope they get to talk properly first, both of them apologizing and Eb explaining his actions in the past. But it would be more cruel towards Harry, if they didn't, so I fear that's what Jim did.

[g33k]

I think Eb was beginning to tell Harry something important -- not just the bare painful "fact" (from a certain point of view) that Harry himself is the focal point of all those deaths; but WHY those deaths happened at the focus of Harry.

I think Eb was trying to engage Harry's brain.  Harry can be bull-headed and blind about a lot of things, but he also has a gift for figuring out the hidden, for uncovering connections.

Harry noticeably has NOT been asking a whole bunch of important questions -- like what is a "starborn" and why do a bunch of really powerful beings care so much about it... about him.

I think Eb was trying to kick Harry's brain -- more than butt -- into gear.
 

[Arjan]

They both have blindspots. The problem is after Skin Game the secret is already out. The denarians know about it. She probably has talent too. The best thing Harry can do is raise her in such a way that she can defend herself.

The whole scene made me think about their communication in Changes when Harry went to Chichen Itza. They are not very good at listening to each other and talking things through.

[Arjan]

Besides Mab may not protect them, Molly will probably protect Maggie. she wants to and there are several ways to justify it in Side terms.

[Dina]

yuile, Demonreach is not a place for a child. Remember how his adult friends suffered here. Maggie wouldn't be able to live there. And again, Harry had several responsabilities.
And yes, he said hurtful things to Eb, that was totally wrong.

[Arjan]

yuile, Demonreach is not a place for a child. Remember how his adult friends suffered here. Maggie wouldn't be able to live there. And again, Harry had several responsabilities.
And yes, he said hurtful things to Eb, that was totally wrong.

And Eb did not handle him as an adult. It is a great way to make Harry behave as an angry adolescent.

[Mira]

And Eb did not handle him as an adult. It is a great way to make Harry behave as an angry adolescent.

Thank you, I couldn't have said it better.   If Eb had been in better control of himself and hadn't been
so angry when he saw little Maggie it may have turned out better.  But he didn't, he never told Harry about his relationship to himself when Harry first went to live with him after Justin died.  The only love Harry ever got came from his father who died when he was six.  For the next five or six years
he is abandoned in an orphanage, physical needs taken care of, but no love, then Justin latches on to him to use him for his own purposes.  So built up resentment on Harry's part?  Hell yeah..  Also never tell a parent how to raise their own kid, not saying that sometimes you shouldn't but it has
to be done with tact or otherwise all you get is push back whether you are right or not.  Given how his own childhood went, angry resentment is the only way Harry could react.   I still say it was a real
low blow on Eb's part to call Harry the common denominator in the deaths of his parents and Susan.
True maybe, but a low low blow on Eb's part..  How about Eb's own neglect?  That too is a common denominator, include in that his failure to tell Harry the truth when he went to live with him. Hell, he didn't tell Harry he was his grandfather back in Blood Rites..   Harry only knows he doesn't want his daughter raised how he was, without love..

[Arjan]

The proper way is probably to ask each other questions and listen to their explanations but that would give too much of the plot away. Now we will get all kinds of misunderstandings to drive the plot even further.

Sometimes that feels somewhat forced. Have some pancakes and tea and chat a bit.

[morriswalters]

I think you are totally missing the point, it doesn't matter how old Margaret was when she died.  If Eb had been a parent when she was growing up, she may have never developed the resentment that made her apprenticeship with him such a disaster, nor ultimately causing her to rebel the way she did.  Heck, she might even be still alive but for that.

And Harry wouldn't have been born and there would be no Dresden Files.  Which is all neither here nor there.  If his point was to get her to an age where she could protect herself then Eb achieved what he set out to do.

Total cheap shot, for starters was it the infant Harry's fault that Lord Raith killed his mother?  Really? How much say does a six year old have in his father's living or dying by natural causes or other?  As for Susan, while Harry had very little say there as well, he didn't even know Maggie existed, and Susan came to him to save her.  Actually if anyone is the blame there it would be Eb, the reason behind the kidnapping was to do the generational spell to bump him off in the first place.

This has nothing to do with blame or responsibility.  Any more then the Small Pox virus holds any moral responsibility because someone dies when exposed to the virus.  None the less, if you catch it you die. It is what it is.  Harry is a walking zone of death because of what he is.  He didn't choose to be that thing, but that doesn't change what he is.

You never know..Actually he did let her decide, he tried to treasure her, Mouse lent support and protection, but at no point was she forced to come out.  Again once Eb heard the sound coming from her room Harry had very little choice, because Eb was so on edge he was ready to storm the room staff a blazing, all Harry could do was defuse the situation by introducing her.

All I said was that choosing to let Maggie control when she would choose to talk to Eb was a good choice.  Maybe.