Hannah Asher: How to build?

[KlausGerken]

I'm rereading the novels in anticipation of "Peace Talks". Ms. Asher just rocked the Gate of Fire.

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“She’s redirecting the energy,” I said. “See how when the waves hit her, they bounce off, all swirly?” He grunted. “She’s taking the heat and turning it into kinetic energy as it reaches her aura. It’s impressive as hell.” “So far,” Grey said. “But why do you say that?” “Because it’s hard to deal with that much heat, when you’re immersed in it,” I said. “She’s not just stopping it at one point. She’s dealing with it from every angle, and she’s got to be doing the same enchantment about a dozen times at once to stop it all, in successive layers.” “And that’s hard?” “Tell you what,” I said. “Why don’t you go play Simon, Concentration, checkers, chess, solitaire, Monopoly, Sudoku, Clue, Risk, Axis and Allies, poker, and blackjack all at the same time, while counting to twenty thousand by prime numbers only, standing on one foot and balancing a Styrofoam cup of hot coffee on your head. And when you can do that, we’ll start you

Butcher, Jim. Skin Game (The Dresden Files, Book 15) (S.311). Little, Brown Book Group. Kindle-Version.

So she is much better at pyromancy then Harry. Much like Mort is better at his stuff then Harry. But the rules for refinements seem to enforce that a wizard gets better if he has control over more elements - because to get specialization boni, he needs to create a column: Ie: To get a +3 in Fire control, you also need a +2 (maybe in Fire power) and a +1 (in a different element).

So if I would build Ms. Asher, she would be worse then a wizard because she simply could not take a similar amount of refinement stunts.

Any idea on how to change that?

[Taran]

The scene you're describing is, simply, a block against the Fire Damage or the Environmental Damage.

For someone who is super-good at one element, you could break it into 3 elements...like:  Light; Heat; and something else...dunno. 

It makes sense that she'd have air, though, too.  ANyways, that lets her build a bigger pyramid but it's all fire related.

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She was possessing a Denarian, so she might have had Hellfire too.

[KlausGerken]

Sure, its a Block - but its one done with magic. So she would - as usual - define the block strength, need the conviction to do it and roll discipline.

And she would need to be better then Harry, which I don't see her doing using DFRPG as written - that's why I'm asking. And I don't think she has Air - but even if she does, Harry would still be better then her in his best element, just because of the colums the refinement stunt requires.

Regarding your spoiler: I assume Harry, who looked at her rather closely, would have noticed that.

I tried to give up on the columns and just let my players buy refinements up as you like. But that's very, very beneficial for people who use sponsored magic. Also: Wizards are by far stronger then everybody else in the high-refresh games, so I don't really want to remove one of the few things that limit them.

The scene you're describing is, simply, a block against the Fire Damage or the Environmental Damage.

For someone who is super-good at one element, you could break it into 3 elements...like:  Light; Heat; and something else...dunno. 

It makes sense that she'd have air, though, too.  ANyways, that lets her build a bigger pyramid but it's all fire related.

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She was possessing a Denarian, so she might have had Hellfire too.

[KlausGerken]

Actually... on page 181 it states that a focused practioner can take refinement only to get more focus item slots.

[vultur]

Yeah, the DFRPG rules (written before we saw more of what Mort could do in Ghost Story, or Hannah Ascher in Skin Game) don't really represent the power level we've seen from "focused practitioners" in the post-Changes books.

Regarding your spoiler: I assume Harry, who looked at her rather closely, would have noticed that.

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Outright use of Hellfire as a power source, yes, but Lasciel could still have been helping out in other ways; precision and efficiency rather than extra raw power.

[gog]

I'd guess that some of this could be covered using the "Spellcasting powers and stunts" rules from the The Paranet Papers (p275-6). This would give access to extra things beyond the normal - though would need to describe a new set of powers, such as advanced elemental affinity. Also could see a variation on the "Breath Weapon" power for throwing fireballs around.

[vultur]

That's certainly how I would handle it, much better than making Refinement stronger by not requiring the pyramid.

I'd probably give Ascher some kind of Toughness or Immunity power vs. fire/heat with an additional Catch of requiring concentration (so it wouldn't work if taken totally by surprise, and she couldn't

The other stuff she does, beyond *spoiler*, is probably a matter of high Discipline plus control focus items plus a precision-related Aspect when she really needs the boost. If she has Superb or Fantastic Discipline and a +2 fire control ring...

[KlausGerken]

The way I read her work on the Gate of Fire, she went in there without ANYTHING. No focus items, nothing. Of course, her focus items might not stuff you can use like a staff, but I can't find anything on her using items at all.

The really good casters don't seem to. McCoy, in "Peace Talks"

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fights Harry without them.

[Sanctaphrax]

In the RPG casters actually get more dependent on items as they grow stronger, though.

Anyway, there have been some attempts at custom powers for this kind of thing. No promises WRT balance.

Focused Mastery

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SUPERIOR PYROMANCY [-4]

Description: The White Council looks down on Focused Practitioners, but specialization has its merits. Through obsessive devotion to one element, it is possible to acquire abilities that a generalist cannot match.

Sponsor: This magic is self-sponsored.

Agenda: As self-sponsored magic, this power lacks an agenda.

Evocation: Superior Pyromancy may be used to cast fire evocations.

Thaumaturgy: Superior Pyromancy may be used to cast rituals that create, make use of, or control fire in some way.

Evothaum: Any ritual that can be cast with Superior Pyromancy may be cast with the speed and methods of Evocation.

Extra Benefits: A character with Superior Pyromancy can use his offensive or defensive fire power bonus in place of his complexity bonus for rituals that can be cast with Superior Pyromancy. Note: Powers similar to this one could exist for elements other than fire.

[Troy]

This is why I like Dresden Files Accelerated better when it comes to this sort of thing. DFRPG makes it impossible to make Focused Practitioners the way they are described in the fiction.

I'll have more on this later!

[Troy]

Asherian Pyromancy

Yes? No? Maybe?

[vultur]

That's pretty cool.

Ascher isn't actually immune to fire and heat, though; she does get burned at the end of the Gate of Fire. And given her *spoiler* advantage, I'm really not sure she is actually as good as all that.

I mean, she was able to kill Wardens, sure, so that sets a lower limit. But most Wardens aren't necessarily that impressive in this era of the series, given how many of them are new recruits to replace Vampire War losses.

Without her *spoiler* advantage, Harry wouldn't have had any trouble at all (and he did win against her, even with that advantage). I'm not sure having a trick that Harry doesn't actually means she's overall better even in the fairly narrow area of fire.

Ascher looks to me like really high Control but (before *spoiler*) relatively little Power.

[KlausGerken]

Ascher looks to me like really high Control but (before *spoiler*) relatively little Power.

The problem is: That is something the rules can't really offer: High control is usually not that interesting.

If you have just two points of power (as in conviction + boni) and 8 control (discipline+boni) - what is there you can do, a Caster with power 5 and control 5 can't?

[Troy]

I don't know; I haven't read this novel. I based my ideas on a consultation with a self-described superfan of every book who has read them multiple times. He was extremely helpful.

But you're all correct, as I said before, the rules in the book make it impossible for any Focused Practitioner to be as good at any kind of magic as a wizard could be. I'm not sure why that is except to encourage players to evolve into wizards, to seek "promotion" in order to become more powerful.

DFA gets around this by letting each player customize their magic. They can make up whatever they want as long as everyone at the table is cool with it. So any neat little trick you can think of can be available to a Focused Practitioner without being readily available or even known to a full-fledged magical practitioner.

[vultur]

I don't know; I haven't read this novel.

Ah, ok. One point worth noting is that Ascher isn't actually *immune* to fire/heat; she does get burned by contact with the lever in the Gate of Fire.

In DFRPG terms, I'd give her Mythic Toughness against fire (combined with using an evocation shield) but not actual Immunity to it.

I'm not sure why that is except to encourage players to evolve into wizards, to seek "promotion" in order to become more powerful.

Because at the time DFRPG was published, it seemed pretty clear that that's how Dresdenverse magic worked... really powerful practitioners all had broad-spectrum ability.

From GS and SG it's possible Harry was wrong about that; although I'm not entirely sure, given that Mort being better than Harry at his field doesn't mean he'd be better than a wizard that actually put time and effort into that field (which Harry mostly hasn't done), and given that

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Ascher was actually a Denarian so isn't indicative of what "Focused Practitioners" can actually do.

The problem is: That is something the rules can't really offer: High control is usually not that interesting.

If you have just two points of power (as in conviction + boni) and 8 control (discipline+boni) - what is there you can do, a Caster with power 5 and control 5 can't?

Well, you would hit more often with evocation attacks, but do far less damage...

But that's actually kind of my point. I don't think Ascher is actually more capable than Harry, even in her field. She does her stuff differently, but I'm not sure she can accomplish goals he can't.

Harry never had to really think about getting through the Gate of Fire, since Ascher did it immediately after Harry found out it existed. That doesn't mean he couldn't have found a way - some of the Winter Ice and fire/ice stuff he's done is really impressive, for example.