The Realm of Shadows

[Yuillegan]

In White Night, the Ghouls say they come from "the Realm of Shadows" which Harry queries Lash about. She explains it is a region of the Never never.

This also appears to be the same place as where Cowl is operating from, and where Peabody attempts to flee. This may also be the location of the Fomor Empress (based on the underground, underwater-like features such as a mildew smell).

The ONLY connection I have found is from the Call of Cthulu rpg. Spoilers might follow here so be warned!!

Ghouls seem to be the servants of "the Charnel God" Mordiggian (a Great Old One), who also has human followers. The ultimate goal of ghouls is to corrupt humanity to the point where society breaks down and cannibalism is everywhere. They wish to return the physical realm to their god (who is currently trapped in "the Dreamlands"). His city their is called Zul-Bha-Sair "the Charnel House". There are "lesser" and "greater" Ghouls in the rpg. Which matches with the Dresdenverse (in White Knight there are those uber-ghouls). The "lesser" ghouls often have claws and fangs, but often can pass for humans and live a long time. The "greater" ghouls however are almost immortal, similar to the Deep Ones but are generally more sophisticated. The Fomor connection strikes again. In the Dreamlands, Ghouls are the ruling class over the humans. There is also a cross-breed "the Hu-ghoul" which is often weak and stupid, but can be super strong and monstrous. This is the ghoul I think that appeared in the Raith Deeps (which fits if the Fomor were helping breed them, as they do).

Curiously, this rpg also mentions Montague Summers (an author that Jim read for research when creating his Vampires). In Montague Summer's book The Vampire, His Kith and Kin he seems to say that Ghouls are just another type of Vampire. Perhaps they are the the Dresdenverse too...

What's further interesting is that the Cult of Mordiggian or the Charnel Cult started out as a ghoul and necromancer cult. So again we see this connection of Ghouls and Necromancers.

It is clear that should Mordiggian enter the physical world and be able to remain, it wouldn't be as cataclysmic as say Cthulu waking up. He tends to work slower, and would spread his influence from his emergence point. He also mostly is only interested in eating corpses.

There is also an odd South American connection, the temple that they operate out of is in South America and resembles a Zigguarat, which in term is meant to be a copy of Mordiggian's temple in the Dreamlands.

To be clear, I think the Dreamlands are the Realm of Shadows but I also think that the concept in the rpg was that of a demimonde (a hidden world).

Finally, there is this strange connection thing of the Cult's High Council. It is made up of three members, a ghoul and a human and a Hu-ghoul. The Ghoul is an unassuming man, the human is an old and powerful sorcerer and the Hu-Ghoul is a scion (Ghoul father, human mother) who is an incredibly powerful Necromancer. I have no idea if this will tie in or not to the Dresden Files, but all three of those archetypes exist so far (well, the Hu-Ghoul doesn't but could be something else..)

I think this Realm of Shadows the Ghoul's mentioned is extremely significant and I believe Jim has read if not played this rpg, so I think the connections are relevant.

The ghoul's are a mystery but I think also significant to the Black Council somehow, and I hope we will get more insight about it all in Peace Talks and Battle Ground.

[g33k]

In White Night, the Ghouls say they come from "the Realm of Shadows" which Harry queries Lash about. She explains it is a region of the Never never.

This also appears to be the same place as where Cowl is operating from, and where Peabody attempts to flee. This may also be the location of the Fomor Empress (based on the underground, underwater-like features such as a mildew smell) ...

Why do you place Cowl there?
And why do you make it Peabody's destination?

I don't think the Fomor Empress is there, though -- mildew happens when damp things are left in the air, it's pretty irrelevant to underwater stuff.
 

[Yuillegan]

Well, I think there is a connection between Cowl, the Fomor and Peabody.

Peabody and Cowl both seem to open Ways to a mysterious Nevernever location that smells and looks the same. So some of us have theorized that this may be the HQ of the Black Council.

Furthermore, there seems to be a link between the Fomor and the Black Council.

Finally, it seems like the location for at least the Nevernever realm of the Fomor would be lightless, underwater and have that mildew smell. I can't recall where but I think there was a similar smell that Harry noticed around some Fomor. I'll dig it up.

I don't think the Fomor are immersed in water...but merely under it. Like in an air buble. Which isn't to say they can't breath water. I think the Court of King Corb was under Lake Michigan. Not in it.

[g33k]

I don't think the Fomor are immersed in water...but merely under it. Like in an air buble. Which isn't to say they can't breath water. I think the Court of King Corb was under Lake Michigan. Not in it.

In the Murphy short(*) Aftermath, the Fomor "Frogface" arrives with lungs & gills full of water.  I think this is the clearest indication we have, albeit not "proof" in any way.  Murphy may have been mistaken that it was "water" -- it could have been ectoplasm, which would have seemed highly similar.

If it WAS water, though, then (a) the Fomor had built one of those specialized point-to-point gateways without any "nevernever" step (or only a very-short "hold your breath" transit) and (b) it had come from an actually-immersed underwater location.
 


(*) -- n.b. we really need a new term for these not-novel-length stories starring Murph, because "short" is likely to get your arm broken...
 

[didymos]

(*) -- n.b. we really need a new term for these not-novel-length stories starring Murph, because "short" is likely to get your arm broken...

Novella or novelette work.

[Yuillegan]

Indeed. Wouldn't want Murphy to get short with one of us. I think it isn't very big of her to take it so seriously. It's only a little joke. But I think the importance of a new term is dwarfed by how off topic we are and how bad my jokes are...

Enough Murphy bashing anyway.

The very first gateway that Cowl makes has the smell of "mildew and lightless waters". I would take that as a hint.

Each one since has had similar descriptions.

When Peabody opens his gateway the location he goes to is described as "a forrest of dead trees that smelled strongly of mildew and stagnant water".

I'd say they were the same place. And the constant references to lightless or stagnant water suggests both deepness and underground, rather than water in motion that would be fresh. I'd say it was the location of the Black Council/Circle and one of the Fomor bases. 

[Con]

I like the idea of a more obscure element of the Nevernever, rather than just Fairies. Paranet Papers touch upon it, and of course Margaret Le Fey's Ruby route in Changes.

Rashid's outright says he knows the Ways, compared notes with Margeret le Fey.

Personally I like the idea two people can open a Way in the same physical location, but wind up in completely different areas of the Nevernever. Harry accidentaly dropping in on the Erlking for instance is I assume because he was the Winter Knight and therefore closer to Faerie.

[Yuillegan]

I don't think the Fomor base is in Faerie. I think the Realm of Shadows is it's own demesne. Faerie is merely the largest part (in a sense). But infinity doesn't have limits and I think Dresden will find the Never never is much larger than he realised.

Well, it's a curious point you raise. In White Night he isn't worried about Cowl following him because they don't think the same way so it's extremely unlikely for Cowl to be able to open a Way to the same place. However in Grave Peril a vampire scout is in Faerie knowing that an attack might come through Faerie and slips through just before Dresden. But shouldn't Harry end up at a completely different place? Not to mention Harry's apartment initially looks like a spirit version of itself but in Changes it is some randomn garden in Faerie. I wonder if this is a mistake or is intentional by Jim.

Moreover, how could Margaret's gem work if it was so unlikely to go through the same place as someone else? For it to work Harry needs only the knowledge of where the Way is and how to open it. But if your difference in mind is such an important factor then Harry couldn't use Margaret's Ways as they think differently.

It seems like their are two parallel schools of thought. One that says if you open a Way *insert location* you will get to *specific location in the Nevernever* which will take you to *insert location*. To get into a bank in the Nevernever, you need to get into a bank in the real world.

The other says if you're mind is right, you can go from any location to any location.

[Bad Alias]

I think Dresden will find the Never never is much larger than he realised.

I've always had the impression that Harry thinks that Faerie is huge. I think at some point, he says it's larger than Earth. He also says it's just the part of the Nevernever that is closest to Earth. I'd agree that it is much larger than Harry realizes because it's not on a human scale, much like a continent isn't, but I don't think he lacks an academic appreciation for it's size.

On the Ways: I think there are ways and then there are the Ways. A way is just an opening from the mortal world to the Nevernever. The Ways are known "safe" paths from one point in the mortal world, through the Nevernever, to another point in the mortal world. If you are using a known path, your intentions and expectations match those of everyone else's in using it. Also, if enough wizards believe it hard enough for it to happen that way repeatedly, it's likely to make it true. We've seen plenty of evidence that people's beliefs and feelings about reality affect reality in the Dresden Files.

I guess my point is that the two schools of thought aren't necessarily in conflict with one another.

[g33k]

I don't think the Fomor base is in Faerie. I think the Realm of Shadows is it's own demesne ...

Indeed not!

The Fomor were dire enemies of all the Fae, apparently.  I cannot see (for example) the Erlking or Mab allowing any Fomor survive within the Faerie part of the Nevernever.

... Not to mention Harry's apartment initially looks like a spirit version of itself but in Changes it is some randomn garden in Faerie ...

That is a not-at-all-random garden!  That is the garden that Lea carefully cultivated for years, to protect Harry.

I doubt there are more than a very, VERY few pathways in the Nevernever that led to Harry's apartment and did NOT go through Lea's garden, no matter the person travelling.
 

[Yuillegan]

Bad Alias - yeah I get what you're saying. Harry often just says contradicting statements of fact. The Nevernever is infinitely huge but also Faerie is the biggest part. When you're dealing with Infinity words like "biggest" lose their meaning to a degree.

And I agree about the ways and Ways. But it seems also implied/foreshadowed to me that any being with the right knowledge, will, imagination and magical muscle can just make a Way to whever they like - like Vadderung did in Changes. I suspect Harry will learn something similar eventually. Because the real limit is how you think. That much is clear - that WOJ about any sufficiently strong being with enough will could rewrite reality speaks to realities malleability.

G33k- Yeah, it isn't like Mab would just allow the Fomor a slice of Faerie. Let alone Titania or the Mothers. The Fomor are enemies of ALL the Faeries I think, so they obviously were a significant threat in their time. And clearly are making a big comeback.

I suppose you're right. It could well be that Lea has worked on that section of the Nevernever to protect Harry. I was more commenting on the inconsistency, the lack of continuity.