Arjan-
Before I respond to your points I want to be clear about a few things. If you're going to make a statement you either need to qualify it (e.g. I
think the Devil lies because...) or provide evidence (The Devil lies
because in Skin Game...[
Evidence A] etc). You also should answer points you quote
directly. Non-sequitors and tangents derail the discussion. If you can't do one of those I won't continue to debate with you as it wastes my time and everyone else's. You're not the only one on this board who does this but currently you are the focus. I don't know you're background or how good your language skills are so if you need me to clarify what I am saying or simplify things I am happy to. But by not arguing properly we can't make progress and learn from one another. We might not reach a consensus or agree with one another, that's fine. But by completing avoiding points or making blanket absolute statements with no evidence means we can't move the discussion forward.
Now to your points.
After 2000 years Nicodemus is the puppet of Anduriel.
Quite possibly, but to what extent that is and how that works is largely unknown. What is clear is that Nicodemus isn't merely a meat suit. He isn't like Rasmussen, trapped in his own mind whilst the Fallen is in the driver's seat. Nicodemus is driving the car (his body and mind) and Anduriel is in the passenger seat whispering to him, very occasionally phyiscally assisting him. In Small Favor, Dresden hears Anduriel speak for the first time when he is suddenly attacked by Nicodemus. Anduriel says "At least it has
some survival instinct". Which he clearly wished Dresden to hear (otherwise it would have said it to Nicodemus in his mind). Anduriel doesn't want to drive; like all really powerful people he has a driver take him where he wants to go. Nicodemus is that driver. I agree that Nicodemus might feel his is picking the destination and that Anduriel is actually nudging him, but Anduriel
can't overide Nicodemus when he likes. Nicodemus still has to Choose what to do. Someone like Rasmussen has been terrified and beaten into submission (and tricked, because if he were clever enough he might realise he still gets to Choose). Nicodemus and all the Denarians who bear the name of the human vessel are not like Rasmussen. All those who go by their Fallen's name are mostly just meat suits. Nicodemus explains this in Skin Game. And your point doesn't prove that Nicodemus isn't a Fallen.
The Fallen want them to do evil, to sin if you want to use that word. It is all about his soul. Nicodemus might have failed in his main objective, Anduriel had a wonderful day.
Yes that seems very true. But in-text we don't know any specifics. I assume you are talking about Skin Game here. Anduriel might be happy that Nicodemus failed his test for redemption...but I doubt that's much consolation considering I am sure he just as much as Nicodemus wanted the weapons etc. They are heavily set back in their plans. But not altogether. But what you're saying doesn't mean that the Fallen want their vessel's to lie anymore than they have to. They want to corrupt them. But when humans lie it isn't anywhere near as bad as when Fallen do. Uriel says this in Ghost Story.
We have all the mythology Jim must have used for the fallen. Faust, paradise lost, etc.We have a pretty good idea what the fallen want
We only have the general knowledge of what the Fallen seem to want. And Jim deviates often and readily from existing fiction and mythology. He uses what he likes and changes it to fit his world, and discards anything he doesn't want. As any author would.
Listening to the devil is dangerous. You listen to the snake and before you know it you are thrown out of paradise.
You completely didn't answer my points and just went on a tangent. How is what you said above refuting any of what you quoted? MY soul (assuming I have one) isn't remotely affected by these books. Because these are stories. So how my soul is involved is beyond me. Secondly, Harry hasn't listened to the Devil. As far as we are aware, they have never spoken or interacted. Not only that, he has only been felt once on stage when he powered the magical Signs to contain the Archive. Harry hasn't ever been in Paradise. Or met the snake. Stick to the story. And thirdly, you still haven't answered why the Denarians would benefit from betraying Harry the moment he picked up his Coin.
Also you are assuming the Devil and the Snake in the Garden of Eden are the same being (that isn't clear even in scripture and theological discussion, let alone other works of fiction like Good Omens) but whilst listening to the Devil may well be dangerous, it is accepting his lies that would be dangerous not necessarily listening to what he has to say. But sorting out his lies from the truth would be a very difficult task considering he is an Archangel and knows lying better than anyone (apparently).
Sure but so would anyone who listened to the fallen. And that is what the knights are for, they keep trying. But that does not negate the point that in Nicodemus case it is pretty hopeless.
I believe you are trying to say that by listening to the Fallen they rob you of Choice. That just isn't true. It is clearly stated over and over that no monster or demon can make you Choose. You always choose. They can hurt and trick and lie and bully you, they can even take over your mind and make you do things. But they CANNOT make you CHOOSE to do something. Ebenezar says almost exactly that at the end of Changes. Uriel says the same in Ghost Story.
Free will is one theme and theoretically you always have it but nature is another theme and nature is molded by your choices. Too many bad choices and it will be extremely difficult to change your path. That is why warlocks are killed. That is why nobody believes Nicodemus will change his ways. But it is theoretically possible and Michael tried.
Not just theoretically, but actually. In the Dresden Files, it appears mortals ALWAYS have Free Will. Compromising that is a big offence and that is where the Angels step in. It's a major reveal in Ghost Story. And you are right. Nature is a theme. But even Mother Summer says that it is possible for anyone to resist their nature. She is talking about Harry, but also Maeve and maybe even Mab and Molly. She says most Choose not to. She implies it is because it is too hard and they give up. Michael believed Nicodemus might be able to change. Uriel too. Just because you don't exercise your Free Will doesn't mean you don't have it, doesn't mean you don't have a choice. That's is made repeatedly clear. Name even one moment in the series where a character didn't have a choice. You won't find it.
In the same sense as Lasciel or Mab did not make You do anything and can not make You do anything. Theoretically true but in practice they succeed quite often
No, you are again conflating two separate concepts. Mab and Lasciel (and those like them) only succeed in convincing, bullying, persuading and coercing their victims (if they succeed at all). They never make ANY mortal CHOOSE to do what they say. The mortal ends up choosing out of pain or fear or whatever, but in the end it is still a Choice. Choosing to do nothing is a Choice. Choosing to do one thing or another is a Choice. Maybe Mab threatens to kill everyone Harry knows and loves if he doesn't stab Molly, maybe she magically puppets his hands to make him do it, maybe she offers him more power or whatever. In his mind, Harry still has to Choose. Even if his hands are being puppeted (meaning he cannot control them) she cannot make him Choose to kill Molly. Do you understand what I am saying here?
In Small favor he chose to betray even when he knew he needed Harry to betray the swords purpose. In Skin game he chose to lie even when saying the truth would have given him his main objective, the spear. He lies and betrays against his own best interest because he believes lying is the best way to serve his interests. That is the influence of the fallen.
Again, this doesn't prove that Nicodemus lies compulsively with every breath. Give me a section where he lies in every sentence. In Small Favor he never needed Dresden to betray the Swords purpose. Dresden cannot wield the Swords. He betrayed Dresden because he knew Dresden was going to betray him (he surely overheard Dresden via Anduriel) and because by corrupting the Archive and Marcone (and potentially getting most of his Coins back and killing the Knights) he had a much better deal. Rather than merely getting his Coins back. It might be against the best interests of his soul to lie, but not necessarily against the best interests of his team or even his goals.
If something is too good to be true what is more likely? True or not?
And now you add the reputation of the speaker to it. Uriel vs Nicodemus.
So again we're back to Heaven being untrue because it is "too good to be true"? Is your theory then that Uriel is infact another bad guy and even Heaven is bad?
To help you, what if Ebenezar is a bad guy? Or Father Forthill? Or Vadderung or Michael Carpenter? Are they somehow more truthful because we don't yet know they are bad? See how you're argument doesn't work?
I know the difference but the independence of the denarians is a lie to make it easier to take the coin. A really independent Nicodemus wouldn't have killed his daughter. They lie to you and you may not even hear other peoples words correctly.
No, you are always yourself. Just because they can alter the senses of their host doesn't mean they can take away their Choice. Where does it say otherwise? "Independant" people kill all the time. Family members, friends, lovers it doesn't matter. And they don't need demons or anything else to make them.
Because it is too risky and too difficult? The devil deceives you and often does not give you what you really wants but something else.
Nicodemus isn't the Devil. Neither is Anduriel. Lucifer is the Devil. Why do you keep bringing him up? And you are assuming it was beyond the capabilities of the Denarians to take out the Reds. But the Denarians have Hell and all it's allies on their side. Some even are allied with Outsiders or Black Council members. As above, they could easily chew threw Red Court vamps. As for taking them out all at once...the Reds had a loaded Nuke. All it took was it to be aimed at them and they all died. Anduriel could have done the same as Vadderung and pointed Harry in the right direction. Jim even says he quite possibly would have used the Denarians as Dresden's team.
He also chooses Mab because she will keep her word and deliver.
He chose Mab because he thought he could get out of it easiest. Which might not even be true. Any option would have brought about the destruction of the Red Court. Jim has made it abundantly clear that Harry could have used Mab, Lasciel or even the Kemmler route to heal his back and take out the Reds. Jim went with Mab, because he thought it most appropriate for what he had written. But the others were completely viable choices.
You overestimates Nicodemus independence. He had that coin for 2000 years.
You underestimate it. I have provided several examples that show Nicodemus isn't a sock puppet and makes his own Choices. Just because he is influenced doesn't change that. And just to be clear, no one is truly independant except for their Choices and Will.
Nicodemus honoring his promises? that is against his nature. I wouldn't bet on it
.
You might not bet on it. But Nicodemus does honour his promises when it suits him, like any other mortal. Mab asked for Nicodemus and Anduriel's help when she took over the Gates, that is how she was in debt to them and why Harry was on loan as part of repaying that debt in Skin Game. You could say that Harry doesn't honour his promises by the same logic as he constantly betrays his enemies. Yet we know that Harry does honour many of his promises all the time. It's not a black and white, straight forward thing.
