Further ‘proof’ that Simon is Cowl

[kbrizzle]

WoJ is that there is enough evidence given in DB for a reader to ferret out Cowl’s identity.

Upon a reread of Dead Beat, I caught onto a few more hints that lead me to believe that Simon is indeed Cowl. It’s still possible that Justin is Cowl, but I find that to be increasingly less likely.

#1
Bob’s behavior in DB has always been odd to me.

In Chapter 3 when Harry is asking Bob to remember his time with Kemmler, Bob says that he can’t because he either chose to forget, or was compelled to. The only owner Bob had between Kemmler & Harry was Justin - if Justin was indeed a Kemmlerite/ student at some point, why would he compel Bob to forget his memories of his time with Kemmler?
Being that Bob is a being of knowledge without morality, I find his choosing to basically amputate his own arm (Bob’s textual metaphor) to be highly improbable. Instead it makes more sense that Justin had a similar experience to Harry when he questioned Bob about Kemmler (Bob tried to kill him with the blue light thing) so Justin forced the spirit to forget that part of his life.

#2
Justin would’ve owned Bob for ~30 years between Kemmler’s last stand in 1961 & when Harry takes him from Justin around 1989-90 (10ish years before Stormfront).
When Cowl sets Bob down by Harry right as he’s about to perform the Darkhallow, Bob is able to revert to becoming Harry’s again - this is ultimately what leads to Cowl’s downfall. Bob is able to get into Sue, save Harry from Kumori which allows Harry to smack Cowl as hard as he can with his staff, thereby ending the necromancer’s chances. I don’t see Justin making such a rookie mistake with Bob - it seems more likely that someone like Simon, who never actually possessed the skull, didn’t fully understand how Bob’s loyalties worked & paid the price.

#3
When Cowl ambushes Harry at Murphy’s house right after Harry calls up the Erlking, he tells Harry about the wardens being in the city. Seeing as the wardens has arrived in Chicago the previous evening, I find it interesting that Cowl knew of this a few hours later.
Someone like Simon would’ve had enough contacts in the wardens to be able to keep up with their movements (seeing as he commanded a platoon out of Archangel) - this would also likely explain how the Ramps knew to attack the hospital in Africa with the injured wardens.
Justin’s knowledge of warden protocols would’ve been 40-50 years old by the time of Dead Beat - I find his being able to know of the wardens’ arrival in Chicago that quickly as well as being able to coordinate Ramp attacks on the Council that precisely to be unlikely. It’s still possible that the Council is using 40-50 year old protocols despite being in the middle of a war, but that seems to be a bit of a stretch.

[Snark Knight]

#3
When Cowl ambushes Harry at Murphy’s house right after Harry calls up the Erlking, he tells Harry about the wardens being in the city. Seeing as the wardens has arrived in Chicago the previous evening, I find it interesting that Cowl knew of this a few hours later.
Someone like Simon would’ve had enough contacts in the wardens to be able to keep up with their movements (seeing as he commanded a platoon out of Archangel) - this would also likely explain how the Ramps knew to attack the hospital in Africa with the injured wardens.
Justin’s knowledge of warden protocols would’ve been 40-50 years old by the time of Dead Beat - I find his being able to know of the wardens’ arrival in Chicago that quickly as well as being able to coordinate Ramp attacks on the Council that precisely to be unlikely. It’s still possible that the Council is using 40-50 year old protocols despite being in the middle of a war, but that seems to be a bit of a stretch.

I'd tend towards Peabody leaking most of the really current information in DB. Even Simon's first-hand knowledge would be a few years of war old by then.

Otherwise, yeah, agreed.

[kbrizzle]

Are we sure Peabody & Cow were working together? Cowl was destroying copies of the Erlking book, but if he truly wanted to stop the Darkhallow from being as powerful, wouldn’t he just have let Harry trap the Erlking at Murphy’s place?

From his actions, it seems like Cowl wanted the Erlking to be free - which he could’ve done any time if he were working with Peabody since Peabody was the author of the book.

[g33k]

I'm gonna offer a counter-argument.  It's one you've seen before, I suspect; but maybe a few details will be new ...   

WoJ is that there is enough evidence given in DB for a reader to ferret out Cowl’s identity.

Upon a reread of Dead Beat, I caught onto a few more hints that lead me to believe that Simon is indeed Cowl. It’s still possible that Justin is Cowl, but I find that to be increasingly less likely.

#1
Bob’s behavior in DB has always been odd to me.

In Chapter 3 when Harry is asking Bob to remember his time with Kemmler, Bob says that he can’t because he either chose to forget, or was compelled to. The only owner Bob had between Kemmler & Harry was Justin - if Justin was indeed a Kemmlerite/ student at some point, why would he compel Bob to forget his memories of his time with Kemmler?
Being that Bob is a being of knowledge without morality, I find his choosing to basically amputate his own arm (Bob’s textual metaphor) to be highly improbable. Instead it makes more sense that Justin had a similar experience to Harry when he questioned Bob about Kemmler (Bob tried to kill him with the blue light thing) so Justin forced the spirit to forget that part of his life.

#2
Justin would’ve owned Bob for ~30 years between Kemmler’s last stand in 1961 & when Harry takes him from Justin around 1989-90 (10ish years before Stormfront).
When Cowl sets Bob down by Harry right as he’s about to perform the Darkhallow, Bob is able to revert to becoming Harry’s again - this is ultimately what leads to Cowl’s downfall. Bob is able to get into Sue, save Harry from Kumori which allows Harry to smack Cowl as hard as he can with his staff, thereby ending the necromancer’s chances. I don’t see Justin making such a rookie mistake with Bob - it seems more likely that someone like Simon, who never actually possessed the skull, didn’t fully understand how Bob’s loyalties worked & paid the price ...

I counter-WAG:

Cowl is Harry; Time-Travelling Harry.

You know how Jim has a Mirror Mirror novel coming (that's got a bunch of explicit nods to the Star Trek TOS episode of the same name)?

You know how there's a bunch of time-travel episodes of Star Trek?

You know how Jim has more or less stated that he plans for Harry to break  every. single. law. of. magic.  before he finishes the stories... so we know TT-Harry is coming?

I'm gonna point to the ST:DS9 episode, Trials and Tribble-ations, where the DS9 crew goes back in time and runs around the edges of the ST:TOS episode The Trouble with Tribbles.


So I'm proposing the TT-Harry novel is basically a Cowl-POV novel (recalling that Cowl IS Harry -- Harry dressing up in a "Darth Wannabe" costume, running around being ominous and threatening... cosplaying a Bad Guy) recap of "what was really going on" of all the bits of prior DF novels that featured Cowl... just like the DS9 episode was a BTS "really going on" of the TOS episode.

Possibly also things like the "mysterious repair" of Little Chicago.  Either pop in thru Lea's garden, or just open the Wards he knows how to open & walk in the front door.  Cue amusing byplay with Bob -

"Uhhh... Harry?  What happened to you?"
"Holy Crap!  You broke the Sixth Law???  Cool!  So are we going Warlock now?"

But this is a sideline to the Cowl thing...

#1
Bob’s behavior in DB has always been odd to me ... 

That's because Bob was obeying Harry', and obeying Cowl'ed Harry.  Cowl had (I wag) given explicit and strict directions to Bob not to ever hint/show/acknowledge to Harry' that Cowl=Harry.  The only way Bob could have clued in Harry' is if Harry' had asked some specific and explicit questions, putting Bob on the spot in ways that Bob couldn't hide that he was trying to hide something (and Harry' would have had to have some pretty sharp suspicions).

...
#2 ... When Cowl sets Bob down by Harry right as he’s about to perform the Darkhallow, Bob is able to revert to becoming Harry’s again - this is ultimately what leads to Cowl’s downfall.
... it seems more likely that someone like Simon, who never actually possessed the skull, didn’t fully understand how Bob’s loyalties worked & paid the price ...

When Harry' managed to "break through" to Orange-eyed Bob, that was just a light-show, literally.  Bob was never obeying anyone but Harry.  Harry' knew that EvilBob had blue eyes and talked in a factual, "yes Master" manner, so CowlHarry instructed Bob to put on his Bad Boy drag accordingly.  Bob would have loved it!

Cowl knew what was coming, he'd already lived it.  Harry's staff-strike was a normal, muscle-powered blow; enCowl'ed Harry could easily have crafted a micro-shield item/potion/etc that would have softened the strike to a mere love-pat.  Hell, if Cowl-Harry was still WinterKnightHarry (and I'm pretty sure he was, if my WAG is right) then he might even have been able to soak the whole thing with the WK-Mantle.

You remember that scene in DB where Harry "duels" Cowl?  Cowl hits Harry with a force-strike very-much like one Harry (a much stronger Harry) might toss.  Harry uses Hellfire to boost his return-punch, and throws a car on top of Cowl.

There was the sound of metal grating on concrete.
"Oh, come on," I said, panting.
The car shuddered, and slid a few inches to one side.

Ya know what that sounds like?  That sounds exactly like a Winter-Knight Mantle in action, is what that sounds like.  Maybe a shield-spell to help soften the impact.  But then raw WK strength, for just a moment.

===

There is a key bit of theorycrafting I haven't seen before:  Cowl was known to all the other Kemmlerites.  So Cowl cannot be Harry...

Or can he???!?

I don't THINK this theory goes so far as to have "TT-Harry" go back to Kemmler's lifetime, and become a fake apprentice for YEARS (just so he could be the person doing the Darkhallow as a sham for Harry' to disrupt).   

I mean... maybe?  It'd be kind of a Snape-and-Voldemort-as-seen-in-the-Pensieve sort of thing, secretly-good-Harry apprenticed to Voldemort-I-mean-Kemmler.  But we know Jim isn't above making that kind of nod to pop-culture, and he has mentioned the Other Wizarding Harry a few times...  so, maybe?   

But instead, I'll draw upon another of my WAG's -- that Harry has a "natural gift" for necromancy; that it's actually one of his strongest talents!  See here:
https://www.paranetonline.com/index.php/topic,53380.msg2326335.html#msg2326335

So I'm going to suggest that future Harry ambushes Cowl, swipes enough of his memories (mind magic) and just hides being Harry inside his ... cowl.  Jim has given several strong statements about Cowl and who-is-Cowl, about wizards and secrets and needing to hide identities.  Can't you just SEE him chortling inside as he thinks how "the people Cowl really needs to hide his identity from" are... the other Kemmlerites?  Harry just fills in the rest with "natural talent" (born necromancer, yo!) and the knowledge he got from reading the Word of Kemmler (and maybe other bits of Lash/Bonnie info, and/or other stuff that he learns between SG and when he TimeTravels).

If Kumori is Molly, the mind-magic is a gimme.  Molly's too short, but (a) we know fae grow in stature as they grow in power (that even happened to Mab, way-back-when!), so TT-WinterLadyMolly could easily be a bit taller & (b) Jim has stated that shapeshifting is just another spell, so either Harry OR Molly could probably craft a "get taller for a while" potion without much difficulty.

Or Jim could just say (via author-fiat) that Harry has learned enough to be able to do the mental wonkery on his own.

...#3
 When Cowl ambushes Harry at Murphy’s house right after Harry calls up the Erlking, he tells Harry about the wardens being in the city. Seeing as the wardens has arrived in Chicago the previous evening, I find it interesting that Cowl knew of this a few hours later ...

CowlHarry obviously knew everything Harry' knew.  But I bet CowlHarry didn't remember all the exact details of the timing, the o'clock timepoints where person-A would be at location-Alpha.

I think Cowl had independent means of checking on this -- CowlHarry obviously also had Toot, to surveil the shit out of everything he wanted ... and he knew more about everything that was going on than Harry knew ...  And I bet CowlHarry had a BUNCH of extra Nevernever resources, and could do a very-comparable Nevernever-side surveillance of -- e.g. -- the White Council travelling via the Ways.

WoJ is that there is enough evidence given in DB for a reader to ferret out Cowl’s identity ...

I will be so bold as to suggest that, in fact, all your lines of argument are stronger as arguments for "Cowl is TT-Harry" than they are for Simon.   
 

[Con]

Biggest flaw in your theory SnarkKnight is that Proven Guiltys the Time Travel book.

Plus your name has Snark in it. I distruss snarkey debates

[morriswalters]

Kemmler may have told Bob to forget him, so no one could use the secrets the Skull had if Kemmler had escaped and couldn't take Bob with him.  However Cowl knew about the skull and both of it's personalities even though Bob is top secret, it was the point of his attack while Harry was calling the Earl King. And evil Bobs asks Harry what he has done with his master and doesn't seem to recognize Cowl as Kemmler.  The open question is did Elaine know of Bob, because if she did she could guess who had him, which points to her as Kumuri.(did I spell that right)

[g33k]

...  The open question is did Elaine know of Bob, because if she did she could guess who had him, which points to her as Kumuri.(did I spell that right)

I'm pretty sure that Elaine would have known of the skull, just as Harry did, from the time with Justin.  Then there's a question of whether she'd have known whether Harry HAD the skull; I presume that SHE would have presumed the skull was destroyed in the fight.

OTOH:  she walked in through Harry's wards, and presumably had time to find the trapdoor, glance around the lab... and would have recognized the skull with just a glance.

I think it's a reasonable presumption that she could have known Harry had the skull, yes.

Then it goes back to "who is Kumori?"
 

[Bad Alias]

There's nothing solid indicating whether Harry or Elaine knew about Bob, but doesn't Bob say something about Elaine in one of the first three books that indicates that he at least remembers her from when he was Justin's?

[morriswalters]

Bob barked out a harsh little laugh. “Old Justin had a lousy sense of just about everything. He got what was coming to him, Harry, and don’t let anyone on the White Council tell you any different.”
I stopped for a moment. A sudden rush of mixed feelings, anger and fear and mostly regret, washed through me. I closed my eyes. I could still see him, my teacher, dying in flames born of my will and anger. “I don’t want to talk about it.”
“Hell, the Council even suspended the sentence on you. You were vindicated. Say, I wonder what ever happened to Elaine. Now there was a sweet piece of—”

[Bad Alias]

That's the one. So Bob definitely had seen Elaine. Whether or not they interacted is still not known.

[g33k]

That's the one. So Bob definitely had seen Elaine. Whether or not they interacted is still not known.

It's not... "known," exactly.  But strongly presumed, I think -- Justin had 2 apprentices that he seems to have treated more or less identically.  They were doing the same "homework" assignments, helping each other, doing each others' work to copy from.

Justin even tried to Enthrall them the very same day.

I'd need a pretty good reason to think that Harry knew of the skull -- and what the skull was -- and Elaine did not.  Elaine always was the one with a bit more subtle and skillful approach, after all.  Harry relied more on raw power.

[Bad Alias]

Who says Harry knew? There is at least one reason to believe that Harry didn't know about Bob. Bob has the personality of teenage Harry. Even after Butters takes possession because Butters already knew him. If Harry already knew him, then he would have more of the dispassionate spirit of intellect vibe we see from Evil Bob.

Another reason is that Harry kept Bob hidden from Molly. I wouldn't be surprised if Justin kept Bob from Harry and Elaine because he didn't want them to have access to information such as the existence of the Council.

How did Harry end up with Bob? Bob asked Harry to rescue him from the fire after Justin died.

It's just a theory. I don't really have a strong opinion as to whether or not Harry and/or Elaine knew about Bob. They both probably knew.

[g33k]

Who says Harry knew? There is at least one reason to believe that Harry didn't know about Bob. Bob has the personality of teenage Harry. Even after Butters takes possession because Butters already knew him. If Harry already knew him, then he would have more of the dispassionate spirit of intellect vibe we see from Evil Bob.

Another reason is that Harry kept Bob hidden from Molly. I wouldn't be surprised if Justin kept Bob from Harry and Elaine because he didn't want them to have access to information such as the existence of the Council.

How did Harry end up with Bob? Bob asked Harry to rescue him from the fire after Justin died.

It's just a theory. I don't really have a strong opinion as to whether or not Harry and/or Elaine knew about Bob. They both probably knew.

Huh ...

I had had the very strong impression (but as I think about it, cannot recall any specific quote or definitive evidence) that Justin had included lectures-from-the-skull as part of Harry's training.

Obviously, instructing the skull strictly not to tell (or even hint) of the existence of the White Council... nor any other bits of material that Justin wanted edited-out of Harry's training.  Which makes me wonder if there's anything else Harry doesn't know that he doesn't know...

[Bad Alias]

I had had the very strong impression (but as I think about it, cannot recall any specific quote or definitive evidence) that Justin had included lectures-from-the-skull as part of Harry's training.

That happened in the show, but I can't recall anything from the books about it. Letting them know about Bob would have been very risky. All they had to do to override any of Justin's orders was to grab it. Maybe they knew about Bob but were forbidden from interacting with him. The more I think about it, the less certain I am either way.