Archive & Oblivion War -- who knows?

[Mira]

She needs to hire someone else. She has the knwoledge to make a good choice.

Somehow I doubt that it will be that simple..

[Arjan]

Somehow I doubt that it will be that simple..

Jim has the power to make it complicated.

[g33k]

Jim has the power to make it complicated.

Ivy shows up to the Peace Talks with >Mavra< as her new bodyguard ...
 

[Bad Alias]

indeed, I might wonder if some Venatori (ignorant of the Archive's genuine role) might conclude the Archive's known "collect/preserve" function is actually a huge threat to the Oblivion War!      

I have to admit that hadn't even occurred to me.

The Fae probably know of the War, or the Grimm move would be strange, but they seem too vicious to not strike back if they found a specific target like the Archive.

Harry figures out why she would do it on the spot. The "physics" that lead to the Oblivion War being a thing that's even possible could be much more widely known than the Oblivion War itself. Mab could have known that knowledge of faeries was dying out, that was a bad thing for her, acted to spread knowledge of faeries, and been ignorant of the War actually happening. Further, knowing that the Oblivion War is happening, doesn't mean that they know the Archive is directing it, so your logic would dictate that if Mab knows of the War, she doesn't know of the Archive or finds her benefits outweigh the need for reprisal/preemptive action.

Ivy doesn't need a body guard to manage blind dead drops to the Venatori.

[Avernite]

I have to admit that hadn't even occurred to me.
Harry figures out why she would do it on the spot. The "physics" that lead to the Oblivion War being a thing that's even possible could be much more widely known than the Oblivion War itself. Mab could have known that knowledge of faeries was dying out, that was a bad thing for her, acted to spread knowledge of faeries, and been ignorant of the War actually happening. Further, knowing that the Oblivion War is happening, doesn't mean that they know the Archive is directing it, so your logic would dictate that if Mab knows of the War, she doesn't know of the Archive or finds her benefits outweigh the need for reprisal/preemptive action.

Ivy doesn't need a body guard to manage blind dead drops to the Venatori.

Well, yes, that's what I said?

[Bad Alias]

No, you suggested that the Fae know that the that the Oblivion War is a thing and that Mab knows the Archive is running it. I responded that one does not need to know that the Oblivion War is happening to recognize that a being (or group) is being forgotten, what that will mean for it, and then to do something about it. I further stated that even if Mab knows of the War, that doesn't mean she knows that the Archive has anything to do with it. Your viciousness statement indicates that it is unlikely that Mab knows of the Archive even if she does know of the Oblivion War.

What I'm saying is that Mab's actions are not even decent evidence that she knows that the Oblivion War is happening.

The Fae probably know of the War, or the Grimm move would be strange, but they seem too vicious to not strike back if they found a specific target like the Archive. So if any of them know, Odin/Kringle and the Mothers seem the only reasonable ones.
Or, of course, one of the Fae started it, so Mab thought 'humm, our Archive is going after me, but I know how this works'.

[morriswalters]

The Fae decline would have been a product of the age of reason, the same thing in the Dresdenverse that keeps magic hidden.  Mab knows something about the Archive since she spent no small amount of effort either protecting her or attempting to kill her. The Archive certainly is aware of Mab's going ons.  Assuming that the Archive is playing the long game she has other priorities that are easier to obliviate.

[Avernite]

No, you suggested that the Fae know that the that the Oblivion War is a thing and that Mab knows the Archive is running it. I responded that one does not need to know that the Oblivion War is happening to recognize that a being (or group) is being forgotten, what that will mean for it, and then to do something about it. I further stated that even if Mab knows of the War, that doesn't mean she knows that the Archive has anything to do with it. Your viciousness statement indicates that it is unlikely that Mab knows of the Archive even if she does know of the Oblivion War.

What I'm saying is that Mab's actions are not even decent evidence that she knows that the Oblivion War is happening.

Okay, so we agree that Mab doesn't know the Archive is leading the Oblivion war (with my addendum being "unless she/the fae/some of the characters who became the fae/... started it"). I guess that bit stuck from your post leaving your disagreement on the rest fuzzy to me.

As to Mab knowing, I would think an additional argument for her knowing is that Thomas' opponent in Backup knew exactly what was going on; if some two-bit chump cult knows, it'd be pretty sad if Mab didn't notice when she was being targetted.

[Bad Alias]

Mab knows something about the Archive.

Everybody half decently informed knows enough about the Archive to know she is dangerous. The only evidence we have that any specific individual character, aside from Ivy, has any knowledge of the Archive's involvement is evidence that some characters have intellectus.

[Avernite]

Everybody half decently informed knows enough about the Archive to know she is dangerous. The only evidence we have that any specific individual character, aside from Ivy, has any knowledge of the Archive's involvement is evidence that some characters have intellectus.

Granted, but to me it's probably straining credulity if none of them intellectus-ers wondered 'why did someone make the Archive'.

[morriswalters]

Everybody half decently informed knows enough about the Archive to know she is dangerous. The only evidence we have that any specific individual character, aside from Ivy, has any knowledge of the Archive's involvement is evidence that some characters have intellectus.

You don't know what you don't know.  Who could know?  The Mothers for one.  Every time that the Archive buries the knowledge of some entity it changes the future since they are no longer in it.  Archangels should know and the White God.  And whoever created her.  Anybody else could know, but no one has been revealed as knowing.

[g33k]

Granted, but to me it's probably straining credulity if none of them intellectus-ers wondered 'why did someone make the Archive'.

Except that Intellectus seems to be kind of domain-specific.  On the island, Jim can know everything about the island, that he actively considers or thinks to wonder about.  He couldn't ask about Ivy or the Archive.

And he doesn't know everything about visitors to the island; in fact, he hardly knows anything, really, other than their presence.  He can notice footsteps, but cannot probe the details of the people making those steps.  Rounding a corner to confront an intruder, he doesn't know if it'll be one of Binder's mooks, or a top-tier supernatural assassin, or something else entirely.
 
Whose Intellectus would cover the Archive, let them automagically know anything/everything about it?  Whose even could?

We don't know, really.  It isn't something Jim has developed in the stories, spelled out in AMA's/etc in the WoJ's (AFAIK).

[Bad Alias]

automagically

Nice.

Speaking of intellectus, I've long thought that even Toot has intellectus when it comes to languages and Winter Law. After Harry asks Toot how he speaks Russian, Toot says "you just speak it, don't you? I mean, come on." When Harry asked Toot where he (Harry) could learn Winter Law, Toot responded "I don't understand."

[g33k]

Speaking of intellectus, I've long thought that even Toot has intellectus when it comes to languages and Winter Law. After Harry asks Toot how he speaks Russian, Toot says "you just speak it, don't you? I mean, come on." When Harry asked Toot where he (Harry) could learn Winter Law, Toot responded "I don't understand."

I think it's something more primal/instinctual than "intellectus."

A faerie doesn't even have to think about it -- it's just part of them.
 

[Bad Alias]

Molly has to think about it. I don't know it that would mean that you're wrong or that Molly is less solidly a fairy than we have been led to believe.