DF & Star Wars

[kbrizzle]

Having rewatched the Star Wars prequels (including the Clone Wars), I was struck by the similarities between the Dresden Files & Lucas’ saga. I’m not going to mention the obvious textual references (lots in every book) but stick to plot themes.

Is it just me or is the White Council extremely reminiscent of the Jedi Order in the Star Wars prequels? Here are some I caught:

• Like the WC, the Jedi Order had grown arrogant & self-indulgent in their centuries of being top dog - being relatively unchallenged by the Sith until they were up-ended by a PHANTOM MENACE who used a lot of cats paws.
• Anakin was being subtly manipulated by the Phantom Menace (Palpatine) for most of his formative years, just like Harry has been
• There is a ‘Chosen One’ who is prophesied to bring balance to the Force - the child (Anakin) is highly distrusted by the Jedi Council at large & only allowed to train under the aegis of Qui Gon & Obi Wan. Similar to 16 year old Harry & how he was viewed by the Senior Council
• Both the Sith & Jedi use the Force. Using the dark side of the Force often enough would taint a Jedi’s aura & turn them into a Sith - similar to wizards & warlocks who use magic & especially black magic
• The Phantom Menace (Palpatine) severely weakens the Jedi through a years long war of attrition against Dooku’s confederation - the Clone Wars. Kind of like how the WC has been severely weakened by the Ramp war, which also seems to have been manipulated by a phantom menace.
• Most Jedi Knights have a single Padawan at a time, sort of like how most wizards have apprentices
• The Jedi Order’s heavyweight champion was Mace Windu who used a lightsaber style called Vapaad - a style so filled with aggression that he was the ONLY Jedi not to have succumbed to the dark side who used it. Similar to Ebenezer & his Blackstaff.

[Bad Alias]

I'm not sure if I agree with number 1 as applied to the White Council. The Merlin and Luccio seem quite aware that they do their best, but that their best is far from perfect. The White Council compromises heavily. The arrogant usually don't. Being members of the Accords instead of killing all monsters is an admission that they aren't in charge.

I'm not saying they aren't arrogant. I'm saying they're not so arrogant as to think they're top dog. They're old enough to remember when things were so very much worse. (And would most boomers, not that the mortals were likely to notice). They don't seem think it won't happen again.

[morriswalters]

Do you think this is because Jim is obviously a fan boy?  Not to mention that Star Wars itself uses a lot of borrowed ideas.

[Yuillegan]

Excellent parallels, although BA makes a good point about the White Council being a bit more compromising. However, I think the gist is the same.

It would be Jim's style to have been hitting us in the face with a cluebat with all those Star Wars comments and no one realise how close he was.

However, I always think about something my old man used to say about coincidences. He said that you can always find similarities between things, but often the differences were greater. It was only when the differences did not outweigh the similarities that it becomes significant. He was being general of course, but that's the point.

As Morris says, Star Wars borrowed a lot of stuff itself so Jim could also be borrowing from the same sources.

But if we continue down this road let's think of some more parallels, but from the original trilogy.

1. If Dresden is Luke, then who is Vader. Justin? Eb?
2. The Emperor (we even have an Empress in the Fomor) is a ruling threat.
3. A super weapon is in the wings - Demonreach?
4. Thomas is Han?
5. Elaine is probably Leia.
6. Ben Kenobi is Eb.
7. Yoda is Vadderung, perhaps?
8. After striking well at the enemy, the enemy hits back = Changes versus Peace Talks perhaps?

I like your parallel to prequel trilogy better though. Wouldn't be surprised (if Jim is borrowing) if the books are a combination of the two.

[kbrizzle]

Here are a couple of more parallels that were pointed out to me:

• Anakin & Harry end up losing the women they love after knocking them up
• Luke & Leia share a kiss, Harry & Elaine are technically adopted siblings (& did a lot more than kiss)
• Anakin slaughters a room full of young kids, Harry burns to death a bunch of young adults at Bianca’s.

@Bad Alias
The White Council is pretty arrogant imho - they are even called out about this by several characters including Shiro. The WC’s arrogance can be seen by their handling of the Ramp war, especially in the early days - it isn’t until TC/ Changes that we really see the entire Senior Council (except Christos) actually prepared to do what it takes.

@morriswalters
Oh absolutely - I don’t mind at all that JB borrowed some of these ideas because he’s really made them his own. It’s just fun to spot where he might’ve gotten some of his inspiration.

@Yuillegan
Thanks! I don’t think we can draw parallels like that between characters though - I think the parallels are more thematic in nature. Ebenezer has bits of Qui Gon, Obi Wan, Mace Windu etc for example, he doesn’t have a 1:1 with any of them individually though.

[Bad Alias]

The White Council is pretty arrogant imho - they are even called out about this by several characters including Shiro. The WC’s arrogance can be seen by their handling of the Ramp war, especially in the early days - it isn’t until TC/ Changes that we really see the entire Senior Council (except Christos) actually prepared to do what it takes.

They're definitely arrogant, but they're not half so arrogant as the "if an item doesn't appear in our records, it doesn't exist" Jedi. I'd also attribute they're defensive handling of the war more to Peabody's meddling than anything else. After Peabody being exposed is when we see the shift.

[KurtinStGeorge]

It seems to me the main difference between young Anakin and Harry is the White Council saw Harry; at best, as a ticking time bomb from the moment they became aware of him.  It appears that many members of the Senior Council and Wardens thought Harry was already beyond redemption. 

The Jedi had high hopes for Anakin.  They may have had misgivings; in fact we know they did; and eventually this and Anakin's own behavior lead to the withholding of Anakin's promotion to becoming a full Jedi, but the Jedi leadership never displayed the level of paranoia the Council has about Harry.  Mace Windu even said to Dark Anakin, "You were supposed to be the chosen one."  No one; not even Ebenezer, seems to have felt that way about Harry.

[Belial666]

Nah, the real difference is that Harry is not nearly as arrogant as Anakin was and that he has seen Star Wars so he expects the twists!

[Yuillegan]

Kbrizzle - True, true. My point was more parallels can be drawn between any number of things as both films and novels use similar devices (archetypes, themes, concepts).

The Luke & Leia thing (Harry and Elaine) was something I have long thought about. There was a fairly strong reaction when I discussed it though (although I didn't use the Luke/Leia parallel). But I think there is definitely something to it.

I would contest the Harry and Anakin slaughters parallel. Anakin willingly (and knowingly) slew children as young as 4 in the name of saving his wife. Harry was burning everything around him in an act of hot rage. Anakin's act was far colder, more deliberate. I would say by that point he was a lot further gone (and from memory his eyes flash yellow - a typical feature of heavy dark side taint). Harry by comparison wasn't even using black magic, and was only later aware that he killed some kids. Now, he may well have become tainted by that. And it doesn't make his actions okay. But there is a reason cold-blooded murder (normally defined by intent) gets a harsher treatment than manslaughter (murder without intent) - I am putting this in general terms. Harry is far more darkside now than he was in Grave Peril. If Harry went and knowingly slaughtered a bunch of kids to save Molly or Maggie...that would be closer. And more evil.

BA - I always hated the Jedi for that sort of arrogance. But the Council isn't far from that I think. Harry often bemoans the fact the Council likes to think it knows more than it does, and doesn't acknowledge that it isn't necessarily the authority on everything (or even most things).

KurtinStGeorge sums it up well. Harry was always meant to be Vader (at least in the eyes of the Council). Only Eb thought he could be saved intially - and some others with him. But they have always been super wary. Waiting for the day he decides to go full Vader and destroy them. Anakin seemingly had the potential to be just as much a force for good and for evil. The main concern the Jedi Council had was that he was too old, which might make it harder for him to be good (as he would have a harder time controlling his emotions).

[g33k]

... Anakin slaughters a room full of young kids, Harry burns to death a bunch of young adults at Bianca’s ...

Harry sets the whole place on fire.

AFAIK, it's never been stated whether any of those mortals -- brought in as food&toys by the Reds -- were still alive, or not.  I think the Reds had already been planning a "no survivors" event for the mortals, and it's just a question as to whether the sundry predators had all finished, or not...

At the VERY least, Harry was recklessly careless with his fire magic:  he knew the fires COULD get out of control, and COULD burn helpless mortals.

What Harry (and we) don't actually know is if it went down that way, or not.
 

[kbrizzle]

The Harry setting a room full of vampires/ Young adults: Anakin personally killing young kings at the Jedi temple was more tongue-in-cheek than serious.

@KurtinStGeorge
The Jedi were definitely wary of Anakin his whole life, as can be seen when they deny him the rank of master even though it’s bestowed on him by the Chancellor (& his power level/ conduct as a general during the Clone Wars more than make him qualified). However while Anakin was being raised/ trained, the Jedi has entered into a galactic war so they didn’t have the time to focus on Anakin, sort of like the WC with Harry & the Ramp war.

[Bad Alias]

BA - I always hated the Jedi for that sort of arrogance. But the Council isn't far from that I think. Harry often bemoans the fact the Council likes to think it knows more than it does, and doesn't acknowledge that it isn't necessarily the authority on everything (or even most things).

Only Eb thought he could be saved intially - and some others with him.

I think a lot of the scorn for the Council we see from Harry is misplaced anger over his treatment as a warlock, mostly from Morgan. I think it colors his opinions on the Council's arrogance and everything else about the Council. I'm trying to think of the Council acting arrogantly and can't really come up with any examples. (Examples would be appreciated because I think it's more that I'm not coming up with them than they don't exist).

I'm not saying they aren't arrogant because wizards are arrogant, at least in the DF, but the Jedi had epic levels of arrogance. (Also, the prequel trilogy kind of ruined Star Wars for me, so I'm not half as versed in Star Wars as I was before it came out. I've probably forgotten more about Star Wars than exists in canon at this point. My opinion on Star Wars should be taken with the knowledge that I largely stopped paying attention to anything but movies sometime during the prequel trilogy and then only watched any the "new" ones once or twice).

I'm not sure if "some others" is accurate. He had enough for a majority of either the entire Council or the Senior Council. Either way, more than half of the deciders thought the costs of executing him outweighed the risks of not executing him.

Harry sets the whole place on fire.

AFAIK, it's never been stated whether any of those mortals -- brought in as food&toys by the Reds -- were still alive, or not.  I think the Reds had already been planning a "no survivors" event for the mortals, and it's just a question as to whether the sundry predators had all finished, or not...

At the VERY least, Harry was recklessly careless with his fire magic:  he knew the fires COULD get out of control, and COULD burn helpless mortals.

What Harry (and we) don't actually know is if it went down that way, or not.

Agreed. I suspect he didn't because Harry seems less prone to temptation to use black magic as the series progresses. He really struggles in SF. After he touches Lasciel's coin, he starts to have anger issues, which I think is a different issue. Now he has another different temptation he has to learn to handle, the Winter Knight's mantle.