Faerie Queens -- six of them? Really? (a WAG)

[g33k]

Mab and Titania "have not met face to face in over 1000 years."  Possibly since becoming the Queens.

The Ladies occasionally meet, but... hrm... have we ever seen them meet not "under the influence" of Nemesis?

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Mothers Summer & Winter ... cohabit??!?

The most-primal & most-potent forms of these diametrically-opposed forces share one corner of the Nevernever, and a... cozy little cabin?

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WAG:

Harry will have to kill them both.  They are Nemfected, and have been for a long time (maybe since the White Council got the Blackstaff -- maybe that weakness is what let in Nemesis...?) .

They tried to use Harry to pass Winter's Unravelling to the Summer Lady.

Harry did a Summoning for Mother Winter; he called her Skuld.  He called her Atropos.

When Mother Winter told Mother Summer that Harry had used certain names, she asked and was told there was one particular Name that Harry hadn't used.  Then they left the topic.

What name might it have been?  What name would be particularly problematic?
Hecate is the "obvious" answer for a "True Name," but... I don't think that would be particularly problematic (for either or both of the Mothers).

Maybe some other deep mythological name.  Asherah, as the nominal "wife of Yahweh" (very opposed by most of Abrahamic faith), etc.

But I think the MOST problematic Name for Harry to have maybe used would have been Nemesis.

If Harry was performing a Major Summoning and linking Mother Winter with Nemesis... that'd be bad for their long-term planning.

Very, very bad!

[nadia.skylark]

I'm pretty sure that if the Mothers could break the rules the way that Nemesis allows, then reality would already have been destroyed, considering that it is those rules that prevent them from interfering with the Queens and Ladies. If that no longer applied, then they could just kill Mab (and almost certainly an enormous portion of her forces at the Outer Gates) at an opportune time for the Outsiders.

[Avernite]

In some sense, Mother Winter indeed has elements of Nemesis-the-goddess

But, Hades' vault kind of smacked us in the face with the Hecate connection. In other words, Hecate MUST be a name to use for the Queens together, or only the Mothers. In any case, I'd say it's canon.

And, I'm pretty sure Mother Summer was too helpful in Cold Case if she was a secret Outsider agent.

[g33k]

I'm pretty sure that if the Mothers could break the rules the way that Nemesis allows, then reality would already have been destroyed, considering that it is those rules that prevent them from interfering with the Queens and Ladies. If that no longer applied, then they could just kill Mab (and almost certainly an enormous portion of her forces at the Outer Gates) at an opportune time for the Outsiders.

It might be that this is one of the things that could release an Archangel to act with full power, within the world.  If Raphael or one of the others decided that the Mothers in fact would not kill Mab or the other forces at the Outer Gate... I don't think the Mothers could do it.

Not to mention how then Creation would spot the Nemfection, and Mab & Titania would get promoted in short order.

Nemesis prefers covert actions.
 

[g33k]

In some sense, Mother Winter indeed has elements of Nemesis-the-goddess

But, Hades' vault kind of smacked us in the face with the Hecate connection. In other words, Hecate MUST be a name to use for the Queens together, or only the Mothers. In any case, I'd say it's canon.

Agreed, Hades' vault DID smack us in the face!

And that's so very, VERY like Jim Butcher's M.O., hmmm?

I can agree that Hecate IS canon as one of the Names that Harry could have used (but it might have gotten Mothers Summer AND Winter... or a trinity of Lady / Queen / Mother...).

That doesn't preclude the name "Nemesis" from also being a valid Name.

As I WAG'ed above, I think Mother Summer was concerned about what Name Harry might have used, and Mother Winter reassured her it wasn't "that" name; I just don't think "Hecate" would have been concerning in the way "that" Name seems to have been...
 

... And, I'm pretty sure Mother Summer was too helpful in Cold Case if she was a secret Outsider agent.

I think you mean Cold Days (the novel between GS & SG); not Cold Case (the short featuring Molly LadyWinter in Alaska)...?

One of the things people have noticed is that a bunch of the major players seem to be "grooming" Harry.  Training him in specific ways, prodding him to this goal or that.  Even 16yo Harry's fight with HWWBh is WAG'ed to have been more the Outsider evaluating/pushing Harry, than any sort of "fight."

I have no problem with the idea that a Nemfect'ed Mother Summer might have been "helpful" to Harry in ways that advantage a long-term plan, at the apparent expense of a short-term plan...

For example, I have separately WAG'ed that the REAL point of the Cold Days assault upon Demonreach was NOT to breach the entire island wide open.  It was to provide  cover for the underwater action, the REAL plan:
 the Fomor's jailbreak of a single entity... who features prominently in Battle Ground.

[Avernite]

I think you mean Cold Days (the novel between GS & SG); not Cold Case (the short featuring Molly LadyWinter in Alaska)...?

One of the things people have noticed is that a bunch of the major players seem to be "grooming" Harry.  Training him in specific ways, prodding him to this goal or that.  Even 16yo Harry's fight with HWWBh is WAG'ed to have been more the Outsider evaluating/pushing Harry, than any sort of "fight."

I have no problem with the idea that a Nemfect'ed Mother Summer might have been "helpful" to Harry in ways that advantage a long-term plan, at the apparent expense of a short-term plan...

For example, I have separately WAG'ed that the REAL point of the Cold Days assault upon Demonreach was NOT to breach the entire island wide open.  It was to provide  cover for the underwater action, the REAL plan:
 the Fomor's jailbreak of a single entity... who features prominently in Battle Ground.

Ah woops, yes, of course. Blame Butcher for having too similar names, Cold Days it is.

And it just makes no sense unless Nemesis is schizophrenic. Nemesis tried to stop Harry from his vantage in Cat Sith, from its plot with Maeve, and basically everywhere else. Yet Nemesis would've aided him in Mother Summer?

Granted Nemesis is an Outsider, and they are weird, but they also seem to be relatively organized. Assuming one of its agents would work against itself seems crazy, when all indications are even the many agents outside the gates work together.

And, finally - if Mother Summer were infected by Nemesis, where would be the last place she'd go? How about the Spiritual CAT-scanner at the Gatekeeper in the heart of his power, who has the best chance anyone has of detecting the problem... sure she stays a bit distant, but not really risk minimization.

[g33k]

... And it just makes no sense unless Nemesis is schizophrenic. Nemesis tried to stop Harry from his vantage in Cat Sith, from its plot with Maeve, and basically everywhere else. Yet Nemesis would've aided him in Mother Summer?

Granted Nemesis is an Outsider, and they are weird, but they also seem to be relatively organized. Assuming one of its agents would work against itself seems crazy, when all indications are even the many agents outside the gates work together...

Just presume Nemesis is playing a Long Game.  That whole "assault on Demonreach" at the end of Cold Days?  An elaborate feint, never expected or intended to work.  This WAG (which is actually separate from my "the Mothers are Nemfected" WAG) is that the primary objective of that operation was to enable the Fomor's underwater assault to go unnoticed, and for them to extract the Last Titan from one of the deep cells, underneath the lake.

En passant of the feint, give the Mothers some extra "we're on YOUR side, see?" credibility.

... And, finally - if Mother Summer were infected by Nemesis, where would be the last place she'd go? How about the Spiritual CAT-scanner at the Gatekeeper in the heart of his power, who has the best chance anyone has of detecting the problem... sure she stays a bit distant, but not really risk minimization.

It's a war.

Risk is unavoidable.

And really -- how much risk IS it?

• Rashid would have to take deliberate measures to probe a Mother, it's not (so far as we know) as if there's an ambient Outsider-Detector spell running full time in the environment.
• Even with Rashid at the top of his game, we know there's a chance he'll miss something; he's doing his best, and hoping it's good enough.  But I've got to assume one of the Mothers would be an especially hard target!

So the risk is probably acceptable, given that the reward is increased input into and trust from the Starborn.

[Avernite]

Just presume Nemesis is playing a Long Game.  That whole "assault on Demonreach" at the end of Cold Days?  An elaborate feint, never expected or intended to work.  This WAG (which is actually separate from my "the Mothers are Nemfected" WAG) is that the primary objective of that operation was to enable the Fomor's underwater assault to go unnoticed, and for them to extract the Last Titan from one of the deep cells, underneath the lake.

En passant of the feint, give the Mothers some extra "we're on YOUR side, see?" credibility.

Your second point I can sort of see as an excuse; I still think Mother Summer took a much too great risk, if she was Nemfected rather than working for team reality, but I suppose it's arguable.

But I don't see why Nemesis sacrificed Cat Sith to make the feint if it was a feint at all, rather than just keep him entirely out of things as a sleeper agent. Cat Siths contribution there is a dodgy attempt on Harry's life followed by utter loss. If he had never showed up, Harry would be just as alive and just as scared, but wouldn't know Sith was corrupted. For someone able to pull the apparently elaborate plan of Nemfecting the Mothers but feinting they were still good, throwing away Sith for nothing seems weird - either he wins and the Mothers feint is entirely wasted, or he doesn't and Sith is entirely wasted.

[g33k]

... throwing away Sith for nothing seems weird - either he wins and the Mothers feint is entirely wasted, or he doesn't and Sith is entirely wasted.

The point of a feint, really, is distraction.

By geting Harry focused on Sith (who is less than Mab, who in turn in less than the Mothers), it gives Harry a bone to worry at, and keeps his attention at a much lower level of action than where the real threat(s) are...

[kbrizzle]

@g33k
Presumably Alfred would’ve let Harry know that there had been a breach in the year Harry spent on DR before SG.

[g33k]

@g33k
Presumably Alfred would’ve let Harry know that there had been a breach in the year Harry spent on DR before SG.

If Alfred knew, I presume so.

I don't presume Alfred would automatically have known; depending on how much effort the Fomor & Outsiders put into doing it covertly, it may not have been noticed yet.

[Avernite]

The point of a feint, really, is distraction.

By geting Harry focused on Sith (who is less than Mab, who in turn in less than the Mothers), it gives Harry a bone to worry at, and keeps his attention at a much lower level of action than where the real threat(s) are...

But, if we're looking at levels, Maeve/Lily is already a MUCH lower level than the Mothers as a distraction. Sith still seems utterly wasted.

[vultur]

Yeah, I think if the Mothers were taken over by Nemesis, that would be the end of the universe.

I really don't think Nemesis is powerful enough to overcome an entity on that cosmic level, either.

The Mothers hanging out together is, I think, because Summer and Winter weren't originally opposed - apparently they were divided intentionally in the past. It seems that both Mothers are Atropos, and apparently all six Queens are Hecate.

[g33k]

... I really don't think Nemesis is powerful enough to overcome an entity on that cosmic level, either ...

I don't think the Mothers are actually very "cosmic" in scale.  They are Summer and Winter, very (VERY!) Earth-centric beings.

A being like Uriel, it's said, can "destroy whole galaxies just by thinking about it."

I think WoJ has varied over time, concerning relative power-scales of the various beings.  I don't know whether latest WoJ on this topic clearly list the Mothers and the Archangels on a single, comparable power-scale... or not.