[Spoilers!] First chapter of PT

[Mira]

Morris suggested that all female Whites could be completely infertile. That was what I was responding to. I thought that was clear. Lady Malvora wasn't completely infertile. Therefore all female Whites are not completely infertile.

She is also a head of a house, evidence of being a queen bee.

That wasn't the point you made or the one I responded to. You said a feeding usually ends in death. It doesn't. You're wrong. I seldom speak in such certainty on this forum because most things are speculative or there is at least an argument for it. You're simply asserting things that are contrary to the text with zero supporting arguments or evidence. You're just making stuff up. Which is fine. That's just headcanon or fan fiction. That's fine. I just think it's silly to suggest that one's headcanon or fan fiction is canon, unless the headcanon has some support somewhere.

Blood Rites page 158   

"What do you mean again?"  He spoke quietly, his eyes flat. "Inari.  He sent to you when saw you left my chambers."  "If he wanted me dead, why didn't he just come and do it.?""It isn't how the White Court fights, Harry.  We use misdirection, seduction, manipulation. We use others as instruments."  "So your dad used Inari."  Thomas nodded.  "He intended her to have you as her first."  "Um.  First what?"  "First lover," Thomas said. "First Kill."

Now on page 159

"Let me guess," I said.  "The first feeding is lethal." "Always," Thomas said.

Then...

"Why in the hell has anyone told her, Thomas? What she is? What the world is really like?" "We are not allowed," Thomas said quietly.  "We have to keep it from her.  It is my father's standard procedure. I didn't know when I was her age either."

[morriswalters]

Vittorio Malvora was the son of Cesarina Malvora according to the wiki.

Yeah, I guess so.  Semi immortal takes a 50 50 chance of death bearing a child.  Cesarina was a jewel of motherhood and Jim doesn't keep good track of what he writes.

[Bad Alias]

You've disproved a point no one made. No one here said the first feeding isn't usually lethal. You said feeding is usually lethal. It's not. Thomas explains why at the end of Turn Coat. Also, Thomas was wrong. Bigfoot on Campus proves that.

She is also a head of a house, evidence of being a queen bee.

Sure. Two heads of major houses have children. It's also confirmed that four other wcv have had children. Raith's brother, their parent because they're brothers, the guy from BoC, and Thomas. Additionally, the White in Jury Duty was "young" and had a human mercenary as a minder. Probably younger than Thomas and not Lord Raith's child or he was having children a lot more frequently than every 15 years.

Barrowill. His name was Charles Barrowill.

Yeah, I guess so.  Semi immortal takes a 50 50 chance of death bearing a child.  Cesarina was a jewel of motherhood and Jim doesn't keep good track of what he writes.

Thomas could have been looking at the survival rate of mortal mothers. I would imagine White mothers had a much lower mortality rate because they didn't have the "die from infection" rate that many real world mortal mothers had before we figured out germ theory. Also, they can feed to replace the energy stolen by the child's demon while a mortal mother couldn't.

[morriswalters]

https://www.jim-butcher.com/pt-transcript

[Bad Alias]

Thanks.

[Mira]

You've disproved a point no one made. No one here said the first feeding isn't usually lethal. You said feeding is usually lethal. It's not. Thomas explains why at the end of Turn Coat. Also, Thomas was wrong. Bigfoot on Campus proves that.

 In my opinion, you totally misread Thomas,  he has been fighting what he is for years..  That is what Margaret meant in the soul gaze between Harry and Thomas, that he is tired.   It is the point that Lara was making to him for years, humans are prey, kine, food..  The Skinwalker awakened that in Thomas.  Thomas up until then had been different, not wanting to feed until death...

But here is what he says at the end of Turn Coat. Page 413

"Then talk to me," I said, urgently.  "Thomas, Jesus Christ.  This is notyou." "Yes, it is, he spat, the words a bladed hiss. "That'swhat it taught me, Harry.  At the end of the day, I'm just an empty place that needs to be filled."  "I didn't want to kill those girls.  But I did it.  I killed them over and over, and I loved how it felt.  When I think back on the memory of it, it doesn't make me horrified." He sneered.  "It just makes me hard."

  He points to a woman and a child and says that all he sees is food, then he references tigers and how he feels.. page 414

"I'm. . . not wandering around blind anymore.  Not trying desperately to be something that I am not."  He looked back down at the tigers.  "Something I can never be."

He goes on to say that killing the kine every time would be stupid, but it goes against their nature.
So yeah, they will feed until death when they can... No problem.. When the Skinwalker mangled her guards, did Lara call an ambulance?  No, she ate well that night.. 

[Bad Alias]

It's still the exception.

[g33k]

It's still the exception.

I don't think we know, either way... that they mostly DO feed until death, or that they mostly do NOT.

Personally, I'm slightly inclined to "not..."

I think fatal feeding is the Skavis & Malvora preference, and one of the things that House Raith dislikes in them.  If either were to become preeminent in the White Court, I expect fatal feedings would become the norm.

 

[morriswalters]

There is an interesting idea lurking around this conversation.  If it is the first fatal feeding that turns a white, does the infant who kills his mother during gestation come out a full fledged vampire?

And this is covered to some degree in PG at the Fool Moon Garage.

[Bad Alias]

There is an interesting idea lurking around this conversation.  If it is the first fatal feeding that turns a white, does the infant who kills his mother during gestation come out a full fledged vampire?

I doubt it, but that is undoubtedly an interesting idea.

[BrainFireBob]

Few comments:

If female WCV are fertile, then they're having periods. Males are still superior in terms of 24/7 fertility. I rather suspect Papa Raith keeps a few other males around specifically so they can breed 24/7 if necessary.

Also, I have long suspected, given that WCVs are never White Council level, that their Hunger fundamentally feeds on their magic. Corollary; all WCVs would be at least Paranet-level talents if not for their Hunger. Those like Thomas who have some serious magic anyway- opening portals to the Nevernever, tracking spells- are the ones who would have been White Council level.

Further potential corollary; the stronger your gift for magic would have been, the stronger your Hunger. Thomas's is particularly strong; which tracks having a mother who was a wizard.

I would posit that without latent "talent", they simply don't survive conception. So their birthrate is constrained by this. Since additionally most of them don't use magic, their own talents wouldn't influence their offspring a la Charity and Molly versus Molly's siblings.

This would explain the following:

1) Why the WCV haven't tried going after the Paranet talents before- their elders are aware this is cutting off their own population.
2) Why Lord Raith was interested in the not-quite-sex-goddess Margaret Le Fay- she's guaranteed offspring.

[Dina]

I like many of that. I don't know if it is exactly like that, but I think you definitely are into something.

[Mira]

There is an interesting idea lurking around this conversation.  If it is the first fatal feeding that turns a white, does the infant who kills his mother during gestation come out a full fledged vampire?

And this is covered to some degree in PG at the Fool Moon Garage.

   I think it is a bit more complicated.  The fetus is the host of the Hunger Demon, but since a fetus has no emotion, it's demon cannot feed upon it, so it feeds on the mother's emotions.  Apparently with a few exceptions, Margaret survived being pregnant with Thomas, the demon feeds to the point that the mother dies either in child birth or shortly after.   I don't think the child is born a full fledged vampire simply because a child, while it loves, usually doesn't have the kind of passion/sexual love for lack of a better way to describe it that it's demon feeds upon.  So like a lot of parasites and some other creatures, it goes dormant until it's food source becomes available, that is the first time it's host has sex.  Since the demon hasn't eaten in several years, it's hunger is such, it feeds on the person the host is having sex with until it dies.  That at least is my theory on how it works in House Raith, however we also know that in the case of other White Court Vamp Houses, the Hunger Demon parasite feeds on different emotions.

[Arjan]

As a wizard Margaret had more life energy than normal humans and she might have had a few tricks to get hold of even more power.

[didymos]

    Apparently with a few exceptions, Margaret survived being pregnant with Thomas, the demon feeds to the point that the mother dies either in child birth or shortly after.   

It's not a few exceptions. It's about 50/50, per the chapter.