Author Topic: Bloodlines  (Read 12433 times)

Offline KurtinStGeorge

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 4253
  • Oh no, there goes Tokyo
    • View Profile
Re: Bloodlines
« Reply #15 on: March 30, 2020, 11:47:46 PM »
It's not that I think it sickens me. It's that it would diminish my enjoyment of the story. Half the time it's not addressed so it seems like a mistake on the author's part. The other half my response is more "why would anyone write this?" I've seen something where a time traveling character was both father and mother to himself.

Aside from "All You Zombies," there's a Robert Heinlein novel "Time Enough for Love" (Published in 1973 and it's actually a series of novellas strung together about one character), where the main character, who is 2,000 years old, goes back in time to World War 1 and has a sexual relationship with his mother.  In an earlier part of the novel he performs a marriage for a brother and sister who may also be two of his many, many descendants.  I read that novel sometime in the late 1980's; and while the TV show South Park was far in the future, I remember thinking much like Stan when he said to Kyle in an early episode, "Dude, this is pretty f***** up right here."

On a more serious note, my guess is Jim is going to be very sparing with his use of time travel, other than the novel where Harry breaks the law.  While it's not impossible for Odin to be some kind of progenitor, I seriously doubt it's a road Jim would travel down.  I won't be surprised if we never learn how the Gatekeeper killed Abdul Alhazred; the H.P. Lovecraft character who died in the 8th century C.E., which is long before even Ancient Mai was born.  It might something as simple as Rashid being born in the 8th century and spending so much time in the Nevernever he has time slipped forward so much that biologically he is younger than Mai.  That doesn't mean that Jim will ever spell out all the details.

I expect that even the story with Harry time travelling will have a strong element of "Back to the Future" in it, with Harry not trying to change the future so much as preventing someone else of messing with the past while not changing anything himself.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2020, 03:30:09 AM by KurtinStGeorge »
Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others.

Groucho Marx

Offline morriswalters

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2547
    • View Profile
Re: Bloodlines
« Reply #16 on: March 31, 2020, 12:26:51 AM »
I thought I had read everything Heinlein wrote.  I'm glad I missed it.  His last good book is The Moon is A Harsh Mistress.  Which he managed to f**k up by trying to retcon it in another book, I believe The Cat Who Could Walk Through Walls.  You could get dizzy trying to keep up.  Tine travel is a cheap solution used by idiots with absolutely zero skills.  You can count the number of times it's used well on the fingers of my fathers hand, which was shy one due to him not listening to his own advice.  The most novel story being the Weapons Shops of Isher.

Offline Bad Alias

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2208
    • View Profile
Re: Bloodlines
« Reply #17 on: March 31, 2020, 05:35:39 PM »

Offline morriswalters

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2547
    • View Profile
Re: Bloodlines
« Reply #18 on: March 31, 2020, 06:20:15 PM »
I'd give you non classic Morris but he not very interesting.  ::)

Offline Snark Knight

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 3933
    • View Profile
Re: Bloodlines
« Reply #19 on: April 02, 2020, 02:38:09 PM »
Don't watch Dark (on Netflix), BA. If you think Harry being his own descendant is rough, you ain't seen nothing. Seriously loopy stuff in that show. But also awesome.

It's so good though.

Offline Snark Knight

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 3933
    • View Profile
Re: Bloodlines
« Reply #20 on: April 02, 2020, 02:45:01 PM »
I guess it's time for me to trot out my own personal WAG here...

Harry is a blood relative (a relatively close one) of >Heinrich Kemmler<.  His bloodline is intimately linked to >necromancy<.

Is bloodline still important when you're swapping bodies on the regular?

Offline Yuillegan

  • White Council
  • Posty McPostington
  • *****
  • Posts: 1384
  • Forum Moderator
    • View Profile
Re: Bloodlines
« Reply #21 on: April 03, 2020, 10:45:52 PM »
SK - I quite agree. Dark is amazing. But I thought it probably wasn't good for Bad Alias, considering the previous comment about disliking Time Travel stories. And that's an interesting counter to the bloodline theory i.e. how does body-swapping fit?

My guess is that because blood and spirit are somehow directly related in the Dresden Files (we learn about this several times), I guess that your spirit inhabiting a new vessel might change the blood's "magical" properties to suit the invading being. Zelazny talks about this in Lord of Light where each "god" changes their new body to resemble the old one, because the true "self" (atman) is made of a chemical-electric field and doesn't change, whereas the body is more malleable.

The other possibility is that body-swappers can only pick magically significant vessels, the stronger the better. But the Corpsetakers form that we meet it in seems to be weak magically, as it limited Luccio (who doesn't appear to have Corpsetakers tricks to overcome those limitations, as Corpsetaker did not appear overly limited in that vessel).

KurtinStGeorge - I am going to have to disagree with you there. I think it is highly likely Abdul Alhazred will become more than a background mention. He wrote the book, literally, on Outsiders and Old Ones. If you see my new thread about similarities between Butcher and Lovecraft and Zelazny, you might change your mind. The other thing I think people have failed to consider is whether Rashid is OUR Rashid i.e. is he the one from this Time, even this Universe? Could also be a solution to him being a thousand years old. Odin might not be the progenitor of Harry's bloodline, but he is the spiritual one at least (considering he taught Merlin, and Merlin's line of masters and apprentices stretches all the way down to Eb and Harry). Odin is also often known as the All-father, and he sired many gods and beings. I don't think it is mad to think that he sired Harry's bloodline. Far more difficult to tell is whether he is also Harry or Merlin or both. That's why its a WAG!

Morris - some versions indeed have Merlin go to sleep, often by trickery and entombed in crystal beneath a lake. Hence why so many think he is in Demonreach. In some it is Morgan, in the earliest version I think it is Nimue (the original Lady of the Lake). But I think you should consider the line "That is not dead which can eternal lie, and with strange Aeons even Death may die" and revisit the idea about Merlin's fate.

Fox - Perhaps you are right and this interview isn't strong evidence of Harry's ancestry. But we do know that he is starborn, so I daresay that in pure D&D terms he is more a Warlock or Sorcerer than Wizard. So I tend to think of this interview as marrying up the conflicting builds.

G33k - Great WAG - very enjoyable! I think there is definitely something weird how Harry could just raise a Tyrannosaurus Rex with no training, or use ghosts as combat magic in Grave Peril. Jim has tried to convince us that there were special circumstances around the veil, or that Harry is just extra strong. But Evil Bob gives it away - he senses the True Magic in Dresden. Whether he is related to Kemmler or whether he just has the same special background remains to be seen. But I do think Harry has a special connection to Necromancy.
Hi, I'm a moderator. We're here to help. Please remain calm. Don't go outdoors.

Offline Bad Alias

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2208
    • View Profile
Re: Bloodlines
« Reply #22 on: April 04, 2020, 03:48:00 AM »
But I thought it probably wasn't good for Bad Alias, considering the previous comment about disliking Time Travel stories.
It's not that I don't like time travel stories. It's that I don't like pointless incest (or maybe incest being the point?) time travel stories. Also really poorly done time travel stories. I do think time travel stories are hard to do without accidentally breaking your own rules. I have a hard time thinking of a well known time travel centered story that doesn't have at least a few internal logic problems.

I don't think it is mad to think that he [Odin] sired Harry's bloodline.
It's my favorite barely supported WAG. Emphasis on guess. I admit the evidence for it is exceptionally thin.

Offline morriswalters

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2547
    • View Profile
Re: Bloodlines
« Reply #23 on: April 04, 2020, 04:19:59 AM »
You should consider that Rashid may only age when he leaves the Gates and comes to the real world, if he ages at all.  This could be a property of the Gates themselves. If the Gates guard reality and time exists only in this Universe time may not pass at the gates at all.

It really doesn't matter what the mythology of Merlin is.  You can make anything out of it you want, if your mind is as fertile as Jim's.  He's telegraphed two possible time travel scenarios. And thrown out some pretty big clues.  He's pushed the idea of cause and effect being pretty important and suggested in Cold Days that Harry  had already saved the prison before the fact. 

Breaking cause and effect is what creates bad time travel stories.  You can't make up a rule that can make it make sense. And going back in time to bang your many greats grandmother is one of the worst.  It isn't even incest. But it does break cause and effect.

Here's a silly WAG.  One day Harry wakes up in Chicago and the island is no longer there.  In the time after that moment Harry is attacked by all the Gods and Monsters that he thought existed in Demonreach. Hilarity ensues and Harry and his allies create the summoning circle and the prison in the past and send back the Monsters and Dark Gods. So in post BAT because they got sent back in time and Demonreach doesn't exist in that present. In future Chicago there are no Dark Gods and Monsters.  There is no evil ley line in the lake.  The island no longer exists.  And because the prison doesn't exist in the future the creatures that exist in it are locked out  of the future forever if they  don't escape in the past.  Which they never do, because well, they didn't.  This is a reverse paradox. :o

 

Offline Bad Alias

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2208
    • View Profile
Re: Bloodlines
« Reply #24 on: April 04, 2020, 03:19:33 PM »
[1]You should consider that Rashid may only age when he leaves the Gates and comes to the real world, if he ages at all.  This could be a property of the Gates themselves. If the Gates guard reality and time exists only in this Universe time may not pass at the gates at all.

...

[2]Breaking cause and effect is what creates bad time travel stories.  You can't make up a rule that can make it make sense. [3]And going back in time to bang your many greats grandmother is one of the worst.  It isn't even incest. But it does break cause and effect.

[4]Here's a silly WAG.  One day Harry wakes up in Chicago and the island is no longer there.  In the time after that moment Harry is attacked by all the Gods and Monsters that he thought existed in Demonreach. Hilarity ensues and Harry and his allies create the summoning circle and the prison in the past and send back the Monsters and Dark Gods. So in post BAT because they got sent back in time and Demonreach doesn't exist in that present. In future Chicago there are no Dark Gods and Monsters.  There is no evil ley line in the lake.  The island no longer exists.  And because the prison doesn't exist in the future the creatures that exist in it are locked out  of the future forever if they  don't escape in the past.  Which they never do, because well, they didn't.  This is a reverse paradox. :o
1. Interesting.
2. A lot of times they set up rules that make sense. Then they do a thing that violates those rules. Linear cause and effect has to be broken in time travel stories unless there is a closed loop.
3. Huh. It isn't incest, at least technically. It is a bootstrap paradox of genetic information.

Offline morriswalters

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2547
    • View Profile
Re: Bloodlines
« Reply #25 on: April 04, 2020, 05:42:40 PM »
A bootstrap paradox is simply broken cause and effect.

Offline Yuillegan

  • White Council
  • Posty McPostington
  • *****
  • Posts: 1384
  • Forum Moderator
    • View Profile
Re: Bloodlines
« Reply #26 on: April 05, 2020, 02:38:43 AM »
BA - My apologies, I didn't explain that well. I was being brief, but yes I appreciate there is a difference between not liking Time Travel stories and not liking incest Time Travel stories. And I agree that it is hard to do right - it often depends on which scientific theories the author uses (and how well they understand them) or choose not to use (for that matter). I suspect Jim will use a light touch as it is just a lot less risky, and because as Vadderung points out it is very, very difficult.

The Odin-as-a-sire theory is an interesting one, and also hints at the greater question of the origins of practitioners in general. Are they like x-men mutants, a separate or higher evolved beings? Were they tampered with by the early gods for some purpose? Are they the spawn of mortals and supernatural beings, maybe even gods or angels etc? Perhaps they are remnants of an earlier race of men, like the Hyborians? Or is it just something that each human has a small potential of, perhaps because they have a soul (which I believe Harry has hinted at)?

Morris - Time is relative, time clearly passes at the Gates or quite literally nothing would have taken place. Or everything would have taken place all at once, and likely Harry would not have been able to survive either way. Although I think it is highly likely time passes at a completely different rate to Harry's Earth. It almost certainly isn't in sync. Which isn't to say events on Earth, or events at the Gates don't effect each other. But who the hell knows how?

Yes I agree, Jim can make it whatever he wants it to be. Although he almost certainly will break cause and effect. All that stuff about Intellectus beings not even understanding cause and effect really, hint at that. How you deal with that is up to you, but he might do it well. Stranger things have happened.

Often Time Travel, at least in the past, was used as a narrative device with no bearing really on physics. And it only operated to service the story, and so was only considered good or bad on how well it did that. Unfortunately, a lot of reviewers and writers learnt from that school and still see it that way. I think the modern audience however is tired of that and expects a higher standard. Avengers Infinity War shows that (even if they violated their own rules, they did point out the ridiculousness of previous Time Travel rules and how audiences want more). Dr Who hardly even cares, because like Harry Potter the show is less about the magic rules and more about the story. Which seems strange in a show about a Time Traveller, but there you go.

Better TT rules are more about limits, and things like relativity than straight up teleporting up and down the time stream. But that's just my opinion. The universe gives no free lunch!

I like that silly WAG. Maybe that's the real story because it is so ridiculous that Jim thought no one wold be squirrel-y enough to think of it! 
« Last Edit: April 05, 2020, 01:08:55 PM by Yuillegan »
Hi, I'm a moderator. We're here to help. Please remain calm. Don't go outdoors.

Offline morriswalters

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2547
    • View Profile
Re: Bloodlines
« Reply #27 on: April 05, 2020, 01:03:15 PM »
It makes as much sense as magic Gates and a wall keeping the Outsiders from our reality. However I'm not married to the idea, I just offered it.

Jim has already given us most of the rules on time travel in the Dresdenverse. He uses the metaphor of a river in the law against time travel, thou shall not swim against the currents of time, or something close to that. And what rears its ugly little head in Changes, but a river that flows backwards in time.  Which Jim highlights for us.

He then has Vadderung tell you what breaking cause and effect does.  It splits off a new branch on the tree of time. And Jim then tells you that he is going to explore one of those branches in Mirror Mirror.

In my silly WAG Jim would avoid the bootstrap paradox by having Harry never know the meaning of any of the things he uses until after they have been used. He gets the knowledge to build the tools in the future. Thus Vadderung's, perhaps you've already done it comment. The river only flows backwards so once he uses it he can't get back. He stops five times on the way back to build the prison. The only way to get back is to hide in stasis and come back in a cell in Demonreach. End silly wag.  I'm not married to this either. :) But it is mostly consistent and doesn't seem to break cause and effect.
 

Offline Yuillegan

  • White Council
  • Posty McPostington
  • *****
  • Posts: 1384
  • Forum Moderator
    • View Profile
Re: Bloodlines
« Reply #28 on: April 05, 2020, 01:13:37 PM »
Well that's true I suppose, but you have to draw the line somewhere. Jim should follow his own rules, at least.

Yeah, that was a bit of a hit with the clue bat. I suspect we will see time travel a few times before all is said and done. But man I hope he gets it right.

My word your mind is fertile. You WAG would make for an interesting parody I suspect!

Hi, I'm a moderator. We're here to help. Please remain calm. Don't go outdoors.

Offline morriswalters

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2547
    • View Profile
Re: Bloodlines
« Reply #29 on: April 05, 2020, 03:49:01 PM »
Jim should do whatever his heart tells him to do.  He's done pretty good to this point so I doubt I would be disappointed with whatever his choices might be.  But I have seen authors run off the rails and lose the narrative trying to be cute.  The Iron Druid did this, and I gave it up.

He has shown a disturbing tendency to run on and not keep the story telling as tight as it could be. It's mentioned in an interview somewhere.   Peace Talks appears to be just the kind of error.  Essentially as described it appears to be one book padded to make two. How well that will work will only be known after the fact.

You say fertile, my wife on the other hand says twisted.  In any case since I won't be here for the BAT, so that is how my version ends.