Kincaid microfiction "Goodbye"

[nadia.skylark]

Oh I see,  your evidence isn't that good actually..

And you haven't provided any valid evidence. In fact, your theory contradicts available evidence. Compared to that, I'd say my evidence is quite good, actually.

You seem to be missing the whole point as to why Uriel said the seven words he said to restore balance..  He says it all in Ghost Story when he revealed to Harry what actually happened.. You can twist my words all you want..

Mira, I have requested evidence and you have not provided it. Saying, "I don't have evidence, I'm just right" rather implies that you are, in fact, wrong.

However you are very mistaken, anything Lasciel said or whispered that pushed Harry one way or the other violates his free will.. That is a violation of the rules.

Facts:
A) Lasciel interfering in Harry's choices without Harry making the choice to allow her to do so is a violation of Harry's free will.
B) Lasciel interfering in Harry's choices because Harry made the choice to allow her to do so is not a violation of Harry's free will, because it was his free will that allowed her to do so.
C) Harry's choice to touch Lasciel's coin and to use hellfire created a conduit which allowed Lasciel to interfere with Harry's choices.
D) The Fallen in the coins lying to people who are connected to them because they touched the coins does not merit archangelic intervention, because Michael has told us that it's the Knights' job to handle that.

Conclusion:
If Lasciel spoke to Harry in Changes through the conduit (C) then the situation falls under (B) because Harry made the choice to create the conduit. This is not changed by the fact that she lied to him (D). Therefore, since the books have stated that the situation falls under (A), and since (A) and (B) are mutually exclusive, Lasciel must not have used the conduit between her and Harry (C) even if such conduit still exists.

That is what I am saying.

The question was how far they can extend from their Denarian hosts not the coins.. So unless
Lasciel was already held by Hannah Asher, her range was limited.. 

No evidence of this. It could either be that without a host, the Fallen in the coins can't act, or that it is simply against the rules for them to act.

Based on the power level of angels in this series, I assume that it's simply against the rules, but so far as I can tell it's 60/40 whether it's against the rules vs. if they can't.

And regardless, we know that Lasciel wasn't working with Ascher at the time, because Ascher joined up after Harry set off the ritual at Chichen Itza.

Sorry, once again you are confused..  It doesn't matter how the connection was made..

It does. It really obviously does. Ghost Story made it very clear that if you make the choice to put yourself in a position, that's your free will and angels can't do anything about it. Harry choosing to create the connection between himself and Lasciel was him using his free will to put himself in a position where Lasciel could influence him.

Mira, as I understand it, your claim is:
A) Lasciel used the connection between herself and Harry to speak to him
--no evidence of this that you've provided, and it is contradicted by the evidence and logic I've provided
B) because she couldn't speak to him otherwise
--as I understand the evidence, the balance of probability is weighted slightly against this, and you have provided no evidence to change that
C) which she was able to do because her coin was in close proximity to him
--contradicted by WoJ, which if nothing else definitely states that distances on Earth are irrelevant when it comes to the Fallen influencing those who are connected to them through the coins.

You see why I have a problem with your argument now?

My understanding of the coins is that the fallen within can only act through their hosts. That absent a rider they can't act in the world at all.

Could be true. It's unclear whether it's impossible or just against the rules. Given the power level of angels in this series, I'm inclined toward "against the rules."

The connection was destroyed and Lasciel no longer has access.

I'm inclined to think this.

I took the shadow who whispered to be Anduriel.  Not Lasciel.

Could very well have been, in which case my theory would be wrong. Lasciel implied in Skin Game that it was her, but there's more than enough leeway that it could have been Anduriel.

yet at the end of White Night that echo Harry heard scared him so much, he immediately went to dig up the coin and called Father Forthill to pick it up.   So Harry at least thought there still might be a connection that he didn't want any part of.

Mira, you cannot state your personal theories as if they were 100% true without providing a scrap of evidence, and definitely not while at the same time saying that the evidence of people who, unlike you, are actually providing some, isn't up to your standards.

There is no evidence that Harry was afraid of a remaining connection to Lasciel, or that that was why he gave the coin to Father Forthill. It could just as easily have been that Lash's sacrifice helped him get to the point where he was prepared to give up all possibility of him using the coin's power, instead of trying to avoid it but keeping it in reserve.

[Mira]

There is no evidence that Harry was afraid of a remaining connection to Lasciel, or that that was why he gave the coin to Father Forthill. It could just as easily have been that Lash's sacrifice helped him get to the point where he was prepared to give up all possibility of him using the coin's power, instead of trying to avoid it but keeping it in reserve.

Are you saying that Harry got rid of the coin as a memorial to Lash?  Really?

 Page 398 hardback White Night

I heard a very faint whisper, like an echo of Lash's voice.
Everything I can, dear host.
I played for a while longer, before gently setting aside my guitar.
Then I went to call Father Forthill and tell him to come over, so that he could
pick up the blackened denarius as soon as I dug it out of my basement.

That is pretty definitive,  now why would he do that?  I'd say Harry was afraid that there could be
some connection however remote.  He did know a lot of Michael's fears for him.  Could he have changed his mind and not done it?  Yeah, he could have, but why?  If he felt the coin was very safe where it was at, and further more he was safe from it, why dig it up and hand it over to Father Forthill?  Hearing that whisper spooked Harry in that moment, enough that he feared there still might be a connection however remote.  But as a memorial to Lash?  Very unlikely.

You want evidence, there is it..  I think Morriswalter's idea that Andruiel was the shadow in the office that pushed Harry over the line makes more sense simply because of the difficulties with Lasciel.  Though Harry, himself telling Mab he could call up the coin of Lasciel if he wanted to mucks things up implying a connection still existed.. But that may have been a lie, but it was an option that Harry mulled over along with calling up the Deathhallow.  Also Jim's "Lasciel is a woman scorned" thing, getting Harry to kill himself is perfect revenge..  Also finally yeah, there are rules that can be broken, like angels, Fallen or otherwise are not supposed to mess with human free will.  That was done and Uriel countered it with the seven words.. However there are also maxim prisons, the coins are that, unless a host takes one up.  As Arjan said, I believe, that it is well established as a Dresden plot point, Denarians are locked up in their coins and cannot wander about on their own.  They have to have a host to act through.  Not saying it couldn't happen, Jim could change his mind, they might be exceptions, but so far there is no proof that it has happened.

[toodeep]

"Meaning that since a whisper in you ear that should have killed you seems to have failed, I intend to skip the subtlety, rip your head apart, and collect our child."  - Skin game, said by Lasciel.

I always took this to mean she was the whisperer.  I see why someone may not, but I think she is the simplest solution, and obviously the one that would know Harry best.

[morriswalters]

There is no indication that Harry was afraid of the coin any longer.  Had he been afraid he would have left the coins behind the protections they were under in his basement. With Lash dead there was no longer a reason to have the coin.  It could no longer affect him.

Whatever Harry said to Mab, he couldn't have done the Darkhallow nor any indication that calling a coin would have served any purpose.  The Darkhallow would have required time and preparation, Cowl bitched about the prep time.  And there is no indication that the coins could have healed Harry.  Thorned Namshiel's coin didn't heal him.

The spined Denarian I had beaten down with the silver construct-hand lay reclining on the ground beside Magog, his face twisted with hate, one hand twisting and clenching—but his maimed body was otherwise motionless.

[Arjan]

In other words you can't cite canon that says the Fallen can act without a rider? The passage in Ghost Story doesn't seem to specify which fallen acted.

There is a woj somewhere about what the fallen can do but I can not find it so we can not discuss the meaning. Usually Jim forgets that it is against the rules to do so just like when he discusses Uriel's power.

There is also that Nicodemus/Anduriel do not seem to understand Harry that well. Not on the level Lasciel does. She seems at least the mind and motivation behind the idea.

There is also the idea that he could still call the coin whether that is really true or not. He told Mab so anyway but that was more to have something to chat about during the negotiation. But that is also a link.

And here we have another case of Jim not paying attention to his own plot.  He has Vadderung warn Harry that Anduriel is listening and has Harry run his mouth to Murphy about Bonea.  Not Smart.  But thanks for pointing it out, I had forgotten it.

Or maybe he thought it just more important that Murphy knew that than Nicodemus didn't.

[Mira]

"Meaning that since a whisper in you ear that should have killed you seems to have failed, I intend to skip the subtlety, rip your head apart, and collect our child."  - Skin game, said by Lasciel.

I always took this to mean she was the whisperer.  I see why someone may not, but I think she is the simplest solution, and obviously the one that would know Harry best.

 Good catch,  I don't remember that.

There is no indication that Harry was afraid of the coin any longer.  Had he been afraid he would have left the coins behind the protections they were under in his basement. With Lash dead there was no longer a reason to have the coin.  It could no longer affect him.

I disagree there, he already knew because he had the shadow of Lasciel who became Lash dancing in his head for a number of years in spite of his "protections" [buried in a containment circle] against the influence of the coin hadn't worked. So with that whisper/echo in his head, he had plenty of reason to still be worried.  Hey for the simple reason of not wanting to go through what he had just gone through.  Yes, the shadow helped him a lot and he managed to transform her, but it was a near thing and it might not work a second time.  Also, how certain could Harry be that it couldn't still affect him?  He isn't an expert of Denarians, he hadn't talked to anyone about that. Michael continued to be skeptical for some time that Harry was under the influence, proof enough that the
influence isn't easily shrugged off, actually it had never happened before Harry.

There is also the idea that he could still call the coin whether that is really true or not. He told Mab so anyway but that was more to have something to chat about during the negotiation. But that is also a link.
Quote

    And here we have another case of Jim not paying attention to his own plot.  He has Vadderung warn Harry that Anduriel is listening and has Harry run his mouth to Murphy about Bonea.  Not Smart.  But thanks for pointing it out, I had forgotten it.

Or maybe he thought it just more important that Murphy knew that than Nicodemus didn't.

  Actually when you think about it it was important that Murphy know.  She wanted to kill the parasite for starters, and secondly as long as she didn't understand what was going on in Harry's head she wasn't going to fully trust him thinking something was very wrong.  Nor could she convincingly explain Harry's behavior unless she herself understood it, even if she had to conceal the actual reasons.  So I can see Harry thinking it was more important that she know, also if you read the context when he tells her, she is really giving him the third degree/Murphy fashion about her and their friends being freaked, especially since Nic and Mab seem to be buddy buddy and Harry going along.. Yeah, he is her Knight, but still.

[Arjan]

Or maybe Karen just needed a good laugh. It is therapeutic.

[Mira]

Or maybe Karen just needed a good laugh. It is therapeutic.

That's true too, though Harry seemed totally mortified.  He may have just needed to tell someone and thought, "what's the harm?"  Or alternatively, "just screw it, I don't care if Nic knows or not.."

[Bad Alias]

Whatever Harry said to Mab, he couldn't have done the Darkhallow ... .  The Darkhallow would have required time and preparation, Cowl bitched about the prep time.

Harry couldn't have performed an ascension level Darkhallow, but he may have been able to perform a "enough power to save Maggie" level Darkhallow.

I heard a very faint whisper, like an echo of Lash's voice.
Everything I can, dear host.

This and the guitar playing was Bonea according to Id Harry in Skin Game. It's fair to argue that Id Harry was wrong, but it isn't fair to say Id Harry didn't say that.

[Arjan]

Harry couldn't have performed an ascension level Darkhallow, but he may have been able to perform a "enough power to save Maggie" level Darkhallow.
This and the guitar playing was Bonea according to Id Harry in Skin Game. It's fair to argue that Id Harry was wrong, but it isn't fair to say Id Harry didn't say that.

As changes was set up now Mab was the best choice. It was faster than a darkhallow and more reliable than the fallen. If Harry had gone for one if the other two it would have been a totally different book not just by Harry’s choices but by Jim’s choices as well.

[Mira]

This and the guitar playing was Bonea according to Id Harry in Skin Game. It's fair to argue that Id Harry was wrong, but it isn't fair to say Id Harry didn't say that.

  One has to wonder when Bonnie was conceived and how much she could influence if that were true.
Because from that moment until Skin Game she presented only as a severe headache, the name, parasite, was never used until the end of Ghost Story.  But whether Id Harry was right or wrong or didn't say it is beside the point.  At the time that Harry heard the whisper, he had no clue that Bonnie existed or could exist in his head.

As changes was set up now Mab was the best choice. It was faster than a darkhallow and more reliable than the fallen. If Harry had gone for one if the other two it would have been a totally different book not just by Harry’s choices but by Jim’s choices as well.

Yes, Mab was the least bad of three bad options, Uriel reinforces that when he talked about the path.

[Bad Alias]

But whether Id Harry was right or wrong or didn't say it is beside the point.

Depends on which point you're referring to. If the point is that Lash did it, it is directly relevant. If it's about Lasciel still having a connection to Harry, then it's relevant. If it's that Harry was scared that there was a connection, then you're right, and it's not relevant. But all those points were made (I think by you), so it is relevant to this thread.

[Mira]

Depends on which point you're referring to. If the point is that Lash did it, it is directly relevant. If it's about Lasciel still having a connection to Harry, then it's relevant. If it's that Harry was scared that there was a connection, then you're right, and it's not relevant. But all those points were made (I think by you), so it is relevant to this thread.

If I understand you correctly it was Bonnie that did the whispering at the end of White Night and that Id Harry claimed that she did.  Do you have the quote and page number from Skin Game?  I don't doubt you, I just cannot find it.  Anyway, what I am saying is Bonnie was quite developed at the end of White Night to come forth so shortly after Lash died.  Which is weird because after that outburst/whisper when he played the guitar, she has been silent, her only presence was severe
pain in Harry's head until Ghost Story when we learn the pain was caused by a parasite.  What I am
saying is when he heard that whisper/outburst, he had no clue Bonnie existed did he?  So what would be the only exploitation for it in his mind?  Other than either some of Lash remained, or there was still some connection to the coin however tenuous and it worried him enough that he wanted it out of the basement and turned it over to Father Forthill.  However if he wasn't informed about Bonnie until Skin Game, and if his Id said nothing about until Skin Game, whether or not it was Bonnie back in White Night that did the whispering really doesn't matter..  Because Harry acted as if he feared it was Lasciel..  Now that may have been a mistake because perhaps though Andruiel, Nic or someone got word about it, arranged to pinch the coin now in Father Forthill's keeping.  Unknown is whether or not Hannah Asher became the host as of Changes or perhaps before, which allowed Lasciel to do her thing when Harry was down in Changes.  Toodeep came up with the quote from Skin Game where Lasciel does confess that it was her that pushed Harry over the edge in Changes.
Only problem with that theory is Hannah Asher, we know she had a vendetta against Harry post Changes, but did she feel that way before Changes?   If it was a plot hiccup on Jim's part Denarian
moving about freely without a host, that blows a lot of the storyline.  The other explanation/theory
that makes any sense is the coin was still hidden in Father Forthill's office, and yes, as Harry sort of boasted to Mab, that close to the coin, there was still some connection between Lasciel and Harry.

[morriswalters]

Page 182 in the Kindle version.  And the relevant passage from White Knight.

I mean, she could have made you see and feel anything at all, and…" Bob paused, and his eyelights blinked. "Hey, Harry. Are you crying?"
"No," I snapped, and left the lab.
The apartment felt… very empty.
I sat down with my guitar and tried to sort out my thoughts. It was hard. I was feeling all kinds of anger and confusion and sadness. I kept telling myself that it was the emotional fallout of Malvora's psychic assault, but it's one thing to repeat that to yourself over and over, and quite another to sit there feeling awful.
I started playing.
Beautifully.
It wasn't perfect performance—a computer can do that. It wasn't a terribly complex bit of music. My fingers didn't suddenly regain their complete dexterity—but the music became alive. My hands moved with a surety and confidence I usually felt only in bursts a few seconds long. I played a second piece, and then a third, and every time my rhythm was on, and I found myself seeing and using new nuances, variations on chords that lent depth and color to the simple pieces I could play—sweet sadness to the minor chords, power to the majors, stresses and resolutions I'd always heard in my head, but could never express in life, It was almost like someone had opened a door in my head, like they were helping me along.
I heard a very, very faint whisper, like an echo of Lash's voice.
Everything I can, dear host.
I played for a while longer, before gently setting aside my guitar.
Then I went to call Father Forthill and tell him to come over, so that he could pick up the blackened denarius as soon as I dug it out of my basement.

Oh, and the sigil was no longer on his hand.

[Bad Alias]

If I understand you correctly it was Bonnie that did the whispering at the end of White Night and that Id Harry claimed that she did.

My claim is that Id Harry said that. It's about halfway through Ch. 23 of Skin Game. I can change text size, which changes the number of pages.