Kincaid microfiction "Goodbye"

[Mira]

Say I have a lot of knowledge I am doing mysterious and secretive about and clearly gives me status and power and potentially wealth. Knowledge you need to save and protect people.

Then I say you you can’t have it because it is dangerous. Does that always work with people?

  Thinking about this a little more, it was truly miscommunication.   Kim thought she had to lie about what she needed the circle for and about MacFinn.   For Harry, and this is constant all through the series, circles are for summoning and the circle kept them in.   The type of circle Kim wanted kept in the most dangerous demons and beings, he had no idea that in this case the monster was already loose.  He thought by not telling her, he was preventing her from summoning something that no way in hell she could handle.  He was right there, there was no way in hell she could handle a Loop, she had no business trying.  He tried very hard to tell her that, but she still wouldn't listen.  The important information Harry didn't have was that the horrific monster was already loose and needed
that circle fixed to protect the world from himself. 

[Arjan]

Yes if Harry had known the circle was not for summoning but for containing something already here he would have reacted differently. He made a wrong assumption.

I think it also made him regard her more negatively which in turn made us regard her more negatively because we see everything through his eyes.

[morriswalters]

Did Kim leave knowing more then what she knew when she got there?.

My read is that she knew there were three rings and nothing else when she hit the door. Thus her need to talk to Harry.

Harry told her what each of the three rings meant.

The question is, was that information enough to get her killed.

[Bad Alias]

She "knew" the second circle was for creating a physical barrier, but yeah. Another thing that occurred to me is that when Harry describes the scene of Kim's death, he describes the greater circle as done with chalk and incense. Harry said that it required "stones or gems or something spaced between the drawings." Did Kim ignore this or was it there and Harry doesn't describe it?

My whole problem with Kim is she seems to have the league possession record for holding the idiot ball. Why did she lie? Why did she ignore everything Harry said?

[Mira]

Yes if Harry had known the circle was not for summoning but for containing something already here he would have reacted differently. He made a wrong assumption.

I think it also made him regard her more negatively which in turn made us regard her more negatively because we see everything through his eyes.

 Yes, the moral of the story is one shouldn't jump to conclusions, that was Harry's error.  However
 Kim's error was not to be truthful with him as to what her problem was.   Her attitude wasn't the best, when Harry asked her how the fundraiser for her movement was going, she gave a litany of
negative things she was fighting against, ending with, "I'm just tired." I think her assumption was from the onset if Harry knew the truth, he wouldn't help, he'd just be another in a long line. So she elected to try and B.S. him, which was the wrong move, because just that alone led Harry to jump to the wrong conclusion..  Because if your need is legitimate, why lie?

The question is, was that information enough to get her killed.

I think it a bit of a moot point actually.  He refused to tell her everything, she knew it and went back anyway and got killed.  If he told her everything, and he was right about her level of talent, skill, and experience, she still would have failed and been killed.

Face it, she went back and still fiddled with the circle knowing she didn't have all she needed.  When she stomped off she was pissed because she didn't have all the information she needed to fix the circle.   Now the question becomes, did she know how dangerous MacFinn really was?  If she did know, it was suicidal to go back to him.   I doubt that she did know, or even if she did, it was beyond her understanding.  Remember even Harry couldn't completely grasp at first what a Loop was.

[morriswalters]

It isn't clear what Harry knew.  But Kim knew something about circles before she got there and had some vague idea in her mind about it, I suppose.

She was young and idealistic.  Which is a bad combo.  Sometimes it works and other times it doesn't.  I can certainly cite real world examples.  Mostly you get over it in your 30's.  And then later in life you forget how it was when there were no perceived barriers to what was possible and you had not yet learned you could be hurt.

[Mira]

It isn't clear what Harry knew.  But Kim knew something about circles before she got there and had some vague idea in her mind about it, I suppose.

She was young and idealistic.  Which is a bad combo.  Sometimes it works and other times it doesn't.  I can certainly cite real world examples.  Mostly you get over it in your 30's.  And then later in life you forget how it was when there were no perceived barriers to what was possible and you had not yet learned you could be hurt.

Don't forget to add hubris to that list, she had modest talent, she thought that made her equal to Harry.

[Dina]

  Thinking about this a little more, it was truly miscommunication.   Kim thought she had to lie about what she needed the circle for and about MacFinn.   For Harry, and this is constant all through the series, circles are for summoning and the circle kept them in.   The type of circle Kim wanted kept in the most dangerous demons and beings, he had no idea that in this case the monster was already loose.  He thought by not telling her, he was preventing her from summoning something that no way in hell she could handle.  He was right there, there was no way in hell she could handle a Loop, she had no business trying.  He tried very hard to tell her that, but she still wouldn't listen.  The important information Harry didn't have was that the horrific monster was already loose and needed
his only method of protecting the world safe fixed.

Yes if Harry had known the circle was not for summoning but for containing something already here he would have reacted differently. He made a wrong assumption.

I think it also made him regard her more negatively which in turn made us regard her more negatively because we see everything through his eyes.

I agree with all this, and I think it's an important point.

[AClone]

Kim is dead, so whatever her sins in Harry's world she paid the price.  Ditto for Susan.  And Harry bears no responsibility for either of those deaths. There is nothing about his behavior in either case to improve. Would this be a cogent summation?

Yeesh. I thought the Kincaid microfiction was an interesting topic, then I got swamped. May as well get this out of the way.

As in other threads, other subjects here, people seem to see a topic as black and white. It's not a binary solution set. Is Kim largely responsible for her own death? Yes. Is Harry partially responsible for Kim's death? Yes.

The important point being that Harry feels responsible for her death. Because...Harry.

Yep. Also that kid from Zoo Day.

Austin, IIRC. And since he seemed to have more power than some (his summoning ability may be on a par with Molly's talent for veils and illusions), I'm wondering if Harry will have a new full time apprentice as of Peace Talks.

You are a minority depending on what you consider magic.

Hah! Pardon me while I digress. I was speaking with an author who had written an urban fantasy series that seemed to include...more than its fair share of truth, based on my experiences. I mentioned what I thought was too close to "real", and the author was silent for a minute.

Then proceeded to tell me A. that my (what I thought I had imagined) "abilities" were real, B. Not to do a certain thing, because it would have a certain result (he couldn't know that I had already done that--with that result), and C. was surprised that I hadn't picked up on this being real on my own. Apparently there are...resources.

And then clammed up.

And while I looked, I still have absolutely no idea where I was supposed to look. If there is a Paranet parallel for that fictional universe, it's in a niche that isn't easily found.

Which I think the Dresden Files' Paranet would be.

Anyway, as far as the actual microfiction is concerned:

A. Yes, Ivy did indeed fire Kincaid. She didn't want to have to look at the face of someone she knew had shot her only other friend.

B. Kincaid realizes that he "didn't say good-bye" because he knows that Ivy isn't going to give him a chance to after he does what he does.

C. Having friends isn't about driving Ivy insane. It's about keeping her human, from being insane. Harry understands that.

D. The Archive/Ivy is neutral. Because we're talking "neutral" in terms of the Accords. She doesn't make alliances, or officially help people. Come to think of it, the only time we've seen her acting against anyone is when someone has violated those Accords. At which point they are dealt with. With extreme prejudice.

E. Ivy would be about 16 as of Peace Talks, right?

Just a thought, She's going to have to have a baby one day to provide her own heir. See "C" above. I don't think it's likely that she conceives artificially--or fails to raise her own child.

[Mira]

As in other threads, other subjects here, people seem to see a topic as black and white. It's not a binary solution set. Is Kim largely responsible for her own death? Yes. Is Harry partially responsible for Kim's death? Yes.

  No, since he wasn't given the right information in the first place.   In my opinion, if he had given her everything she asked for, given her level of talent and experience that would have been irresponsible, the consequence would have been totally his fault. 

[Bad Alias]

D. The Archive/Ivy is neutral. Because we're talking "neutral" in terms of the Accords. She doesn't make alliances, or officially help people. Come to think of it, the only time we've seen her acting against anyone is when someone has violated those Accords. At which point they are dealt with. With extreme prejudice.

The Archive was built to be neutral, as in magically limited.

You might be talking "neutral" in terms of the Accords, but many people are talking about her cover story of neutrality. The neutrality explicitly stated in books. It's pretty common for people to build theories around that neutrality or to object to theories based on that neutrality. The fact that it's a cover is only stated by Jim. It's not in any of the books, short stories, comic books, or paranet papers.

[SoftManacles4MagiHackers]

I don't think ivy first learned about Harry's plan from the phone call with Kincaid

(click to show/hide)

First off, on the assumption Lasciel is the shadow, she would have been broken out. Which the church, knowing that most coins are from their storage, probably figured out and did paperwork on. Just knowing she was out could put ivy on alert. Also, how did lasciel get out of her coin? To release a fallen angel into the world, when it appears they are required to stay in the coin, would certainly require heavy magic, or a ritual that could send off warnings from anything from purchasing materials to communicating and planning among the denarians, or the spies that cant be in direct contact like in the church. It is my belief that ivy knew of the intent and actions of lasciel, and was already planning to do something about it. her emotional response to Kincaid was because she knew he would have the best chance of succeeding. We have to remember that the archive was made to deal with significant harmful entities. She is most known for her written knowledge acquisition, but she must have many more specialties in order to carry out her duty. The paperwork and therefore observations of humans isn't that reliable, and many of the foes in the oblivion war would certainly be capable of getting around her. She wouldn't be that important to it if she didn't have more talents. Significant, subtle actions beyond the ability to sense, like lasciel being out of ber coin, could arguably be necessary for her whole purpose.

[nadia.skylark]

Yes, the moral of the story is one shouldn't jump to conclusions, that was Harry's error.

I don't think Harry jumped to conclusions. Regardless of the fact that he was lied to, he did ask Kim repeatedly why she needed to know about the circle, and asking seems like the opposite of jumping to conclusions.

First off, on the assumption Lasciel is the shadow, she would have been broken out. Which the church, knowing that most coins are from their storage, probably figured out and did paperwork on. Just knowing she was out could put ivy on alert. Also, how did lasciel get out of her coin? To release a fallen angel into the world, when it appears they are required to stay in the coin, would certainly require heavy magic, or a ritual that could send off warnings from anything from purchasing materials to communicating and planning among the denarians, or the spies that cant be in direct contact like in the church.

There's a WoJ that being in the coins limits the influence of the Fallen in them to Earth, which I had taken to mean that the Fallen in the coins absolutely can project themselves out of them, it's just against the rules. If that's the case, then there wouldn't be any need for a ritual.

[Mira]

There's a WoJ that being in the coins limits the influence of the Fallen in them to Earth, which I had taken to mean that the Fallen in the coins absolutely can project themselves out of them, it's just against the rules. If that's the case, then there wouldn't be any need for a ritual.

 I think it happened under special circumstances, the conditions were perfect.  At the end of White Night Harry dug up the coin and had Father Forthill pick it up.  If he hadn't transferred it to where ever the Church keeps them and it was in a safe in his office, the influence might still be there.  Ordinarily it wouldn't be save for Harry's former connection with it.  Remember also when Harry played the guitar at the end, he still heard a voice, so Lash wasn't completely gone. 

I don't think Harry jumped to conclusions. Regardless of the fact that he was lied to, he did ask Kim repeatedly why she needed to know about the circle, and asking seems like the opposite of jumping to conclusions.

Yes, he repeatedly asked Kim why she needed to know, she lied totally including excluding the most important detail, the monster was already out and about.  Yes, Harry did come to a very rational conclusion because the only reason he knew for wanting to make that circle was for summoning and keeping in the worst and most powerful monsters and demons, something Kim wasn't even close to pulling off even if he had told her everything.  He did the right thing given the information she gave him, he actually thought at the time he was protecting her. 

[nadia.skylark]

At the end of White Night Harry dug up the coin and had Father Forthill pick it up.  If he hadn't transferred it to where ever the Church keeps them and it was in a safe in his office, the influence might still be there.

Why wouldn't he transfer it to where it's supposed to go?

Ordinarily it wouldn't be save for Harry's former connection with it.

...Are you claiming that Father Forthill wants Harry to pick up Lasciel's coin? Because otherwise I don't get this sentence at all.

Remember also when Harry played the guitar at the end, he still heard a voice, so Lash wasn't completely gone.

Yes, and we were told what that was in Skin Game, so it's irrelevant here.